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Low G, 10 Inch Speakers?

Discussion in 'Amps [BG]' started by KhzDonut, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. KhzDonut

    KhzDonut

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    If this is something that's already in a FAQ section somewhere, I do apologize.

    I play a 5 string, tuned down 2 full steps (GCFBbEb)

    I've got a TC Electronics RH450 and a used Avatar 4x10 (Neo speakers, according to the guy at the shop)

    This will be my first live rig, and first live gig (sort of a stoner/sludge metal thing, mostly in C. I'll probably only use the G string for hitting the occasional low-A)

    Should I be worried about blowing anything from hitting a low G?

    Always been a home studio guy, and I'm finding this world of live rigs to be... Daunting.
  2. dukeorock

    dukeorock Gold Supporting Member

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    Be brave!!! That amp is fairly low wattage, so I doubt you'll be in much danger of hurting a decent 410...

    Now for the bad news...to really slam a low G and hear it very well, you'll probably want a much more powerful amp and a cab that can handle such serious low end, IMO, if you're doing a loud Sludge gig
  3. IPYF

    IPYF

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    First off, there's always a chance that you will hurt a cabinet by tuning low and playing loud. Lower frequencies can crack speakers in even the best cabs if treated improperly. If you've got PA support don't lean on your TC too hard with a tuning that low. If you don't have a PA you want to be sensible. If the cab appears bothered you've only got to give it a bit too much bite and your cones will be flapping in the breeze.

    I actually looked into this recently here on the Basses section on TB. I play a 4 tuned to C as my main and I was considering getting a Spector 5 and setting it up with a low G#. Essentially what turned my off was the fact that in order to actually reproduce the requisite frequencies live you need an immensely sensitive cabinet and a huge amount of gear to get the real sound out. There's only a few cats in the world (for instance the fellow from Periphery plays in G# live and I'm let to believe that his tone is impeccable) who have the budget to actually do it as competently as sonically possible.

    A lot of cabs don't even have the sensitivity to produce low B let alone A or G. You're essentially just hearing a false harmonic response (someone with acoustics knowledge feel free to jump in here and provide more details) so you essentially might as well be playing the octave up. Unfortunately I don't think that the TC410 will have the frequency responses you need, but I'm not certain on that front.
  4. RS66LB

    RS66LB

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    although heavy, many pa style subs offer far better extension then typical 4x10s -for what you're trying to achieve a simple 2x18" works beautifully -they're fairly sensitive, relatively inexpensive (a new Eminence loaded Carvin LS-1802 goes for $499) plus they usually handle an honest 1000 watts or more, physically you're looking at dimensions in the ballpark of 24x24x42 and a little over 100 lbs. however when combined with a smaller bass cab (2x10 for example) thats crossed over at say 75 hz or higher you end up with a massive low end thud that seems to be comming from the smaller mid bass cab (the typical illusion of a subwoofer), of course a rig like this is not for everyone but is nonetheless amazing in how the concussive force adds to the excitement of even the simplest of riffs.
    btw- for a little less low frequency output you could also check out Carvins compact 21" sub (24x24x24 @80 lbs for around $550)
  5. Downunderwonder

    Downunderwonder

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    No problem with that amp, it filters out all the lows so it can claim 450W when it's actually 236W.
  6. Bassmec

    Bassmec

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    This sort of radical tuning will require a radical solution.
    Taking into consideration a chosen fundamental at 24.5 Hz one has to ask what your home studio monitors that lead to this decision are?.
    You would do well to use a powerful active sub woofer with your current bass rig if you expect to hear any fundamental at all.
    You could just set a sharp high pass that works for the four by ten at about twice your fundamental frequency restricting you to harmonics
    only on stage and then lean on the PA subs to provide what ever it can at 50 Hz and below.
    Other than that you are in Danley labs territory for an on stage sub bass
    system.:bassist:
    http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/subwoofers/tapped-horns/th-spud/
    Of course the more harmonic distortion you have in your sound the less
    real dead low you will actually require.:bassist:
  7. CL400Peavey

    CL400Peavey Supporting Member

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    +1

    To the OP:

    The TC's "proprietary power management" has a pretty quick roll off in the lows. Have you tried your rig at volume with your band?
  8. tom once dead

    tom once dead

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    Another +1 for you should be fine.

    I tune in GCGCF and my Ampeg 410he handles the G fine, just don't be stupid about it and boost the lows too much.
  9. 1958Bassman

    1958Bassman

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    No, it's 450W within a specific frequency range. That's what specifications do- they specify conditions and data. By going outside of the original parameters, you're trying to say it's not doing something that doesn't meet your needs or wants. It's not a matter of claiming something that's wrong or dishonest, it's a matter of using something that meets the requirements of a particular person or application. Filtering the low end makes this amp perfect for certain uses, but not all. If something outside of the operating range of this amp is required, it should be overlooked and something else should be used.
  10. CL400Peavey

    CL400Peavey Supporting Member

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    Please review the Bass Gear article, It is only a 236 watt amp.
  11. 1958Bassman

    1958Bassman

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    How loud do you want this setup to play? If you want extreme SPL, add larger speakers- four 10" speakers won't be enough to fill a large space at high SPL.

    Yes, you should be worried about damaging speakers if you hit a low G at high SPL. At low SPL, it shouldn't be a problem.

    Read my post about specifications- these are used when a PA, fixed installation or other music system is designed and if the criteria are met, the system will last for years. If the speakers can't handle the signal going in, they can last minutes instead of years or decades.

    It boils down to this- use the equipment for what it was designed, not what you may want. If it's not physically possible, accept that and use something that was designed for what you need. This is why bi-amping works- it separates the high frequency drivers from signals that they can't produce and sends that to speakers that CAN. It significantly reduces the distortion/damage, increases longevity and gives the user more control.

    If the PA won't be used to support the low end from your rig, don't expect great sound on low notes.
  12. 1958Bassman

    1958Bassman

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    Can you paste a link?
  13. CL400Peavey

    CL400Peavey Supporting Member

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  14. walterw

    walterw Supportive Fender Gold Supporting Member

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    Don't get too hung up on these supposed scary-low fundamentals; even a regular low B has very little actual 30hz going on, due to the string itself. The lower you go from that, the more the string is just producing the first octave and higher harmonics anyway.

    Regular bass rigs rolling off at regular frequencies will do just fine, and in fact may be better, keeping mud out of the stage mix.
  15. KhzDonut

    KhzDonut

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    ooh, 17hz subwoofer. I'd never heard of those before. That's pretty sweet!

    Anyway, I'm actually just using some M-Audio studio monitors. I do find that if I do a sharp highpass that cuts out the fundamental from Low G to about low A#, there really isn't an audible difference until I play it back on a much more robust sound system.

    Honestly, the only reason I went this low on bass is to match my guitar tuning for the djenty, Meshuggah-esque interludes. For bass it's proven to be somewhat impractical beyond a sort of ghost-note accent. I certainly can't do anything melodic in that range. I do find the ability to hit low A really useful, though. Back when I tuned in standard, that was my main motivation for getting a 5-string; hitting low-D without de-tuning.

    Anyway, thanks for the suggestion about high-passing and relying on the PA for the fundamental. I wouldn't have ever thought of that in a live setting; very much outside my current range of experience.
  16. KhzDonut

    KhzDonut

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    Thanks for the information. I doubt I'll be expecting huge volume. As a sludge trio, our biggest shows will most likely be just slightly larger than a dive bar, and at that point I'll probably be banking on the PA system to help me out.
  17. KhzDonut

    KhzDonut

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    Not yet. Still waiting for my cab to arrive in the mail, unfortunately. The idea of blown speakers hadn't occurred to me until it was already in transit, and I was worried the first thing I did was just make the thing explode.

    I'm having visions of that opening scene from "Back To The Future", except in my vision, everybody from Talkbass is standing around me telling me not to tune so damned low.
  18. Downunderwonder

    Downunderwonder

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    LOL. There's a photoshop opportunity there.

    Sorry to burst your bubble but house subs are high passed about 50hz if you're lucky. Fundamentals are the big bass lie.
  19. Fuzzbassian

    Fuzzbassian

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  20. 1958Bassman

    1958Bassman

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    "House subs", as in home audio or FOH?

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