Midi Implementation

Discussion in 'Effects [BG]' started by WaldoNova, Jan 31, 2014.


  1. WaldoNova

    WaldoNova Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2009
    Location:
    Yonkers, NY
    I've gotten my shipping notice for the Source Audio Hub. I'm really excited bout the prospect of having 128 "scenes" at the touch of single button. Whether I'll need that many is a debate for some other time. I have the HH3, The Manta, OFD, Orbital and the Dimension reverb. I will probably get the dual expression pedal, or two, in the near future. I may incorporate a Delay, an Iron Ether SubT(ordered long time ago and I'm just waiting for it to arrive!!!) and utilize my Epitome(mainly for the micropog) in this setup. So the tap dancing should be kept to a minimum with the HUB setup.

    I'm playing in a new band that is what I call Progressive Aggressive. We are a heavy, ambient Tool and Pink Floyd-ish sounding. We are a 3 piece and the guitarist and I both have and use a lot of pedals. The drummer triggers sound samples at the beginning, during and at the end of songs. The guitarrist sings most of the songs. He recently asked, after hearing my demos, that I sing my songs that I've brought to the table. So I went out and bought a TC Helicon VoiveLive2 for vocal FX and Harmonies. I'm excited about singing lead and having my songs heard but... Now I'm going to have to do more tap dancing with the vocal pedal.

    So I was thinking that maybe what I need to do is get a better midi controller, I have the Tech21 MidiMouse, so I can sync my Source Audio scenes and my Vocal FX's. Now I know absolutely nothing, except for the concept, of MIDI.

    Does anyone know of any advice, articles, books,links or opinions that will help lead me in the right direction. I need to know what controller would be best for my situation or if there are multiple approaches and their pros and cons.

    Again all I want to do is set this up so at the push of one button I have my vocal and bass fx's for each song and part available. I can afford to purchase what I need to achieve this so price isn't the biggest determining factor.

    Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance!!!
  2. Kazoo_Legend

    Kazoo_Legend Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2012
    Location:
    Central Valley CA
    I have similar plan, but instead of vocals, I want to control stage lighting as well. There's a company I use that make *really* good quality stuff:

    http://www.pedalsync.com

    I'm trying to hunt down software that can send out program changes. The ideal plan in my head was to use a m-audio midi sport and go through something like ableton that can allow me to hit the program change before the downbeat, and then have the program come down on the one. Now as a progressive band that'd be much harder to map your entire set, but it's an idea I'm shoving around as well. I use pedalsync's Master Control, Node, and MIDI Splitty. All are bulletproof and extremely fast. What kind of stuff have you thought of doing so far?
  3. gastric

    gastric Professional product tester for hire Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC
    Disclosures:
    Source Audio BETA tester
    Sounds like you can probably still use the MIDI Mouse to provide your "push of one button" feature. You just need to purchase some MIDI compatible programmable loop switchers to incorporate your analog pedals into the mix. The programmable loop switcher would allow the analog pedals can be left on permanently, and the loop switcher can take then in and out of the FX chain with each MIDI PC (patch/scene) the MIDI Mouse sends.
  4. WaldoNova

    WaldoNova Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2009
    Location:
    Yonkers, NY
    I'm still at the stage of figuring out whether I would need a different floor controller than the Midimouse and an external midi port. I know that the Source Audio pedals have proven to be compatible with the MidiMouse but I'm not sure if it, the MidiMouse, will be able to save vocal settings on the VoiceLive2 to go with the SA scenes.
  5. Register to disable this ad
  6. Kazoo_Legend

    Kazoo_Legend Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2012
    Location:
    Central Valley CA
    Are you controlling vocals now? If so, that MIDI Splitty can provide each unit with its own program change message if you're worried about the thru port on either the VoiceLive or SA hub.
  7. WaldoNova

    WaldoNova Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2009
    Location:
    Yonkers, NY
    I will investigate this more tonight. A Google search showed a few different ones. Should I be thinking about a rackmountable MIDI compatible programmable loop switchers, I do have room for one in my rack, or a floorboard unit? Pro's and con's?
  8. WaldoNova

    WaldoNova Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2009
    Location:
    Yonkers, NY
    I always thought it would be awesome to have a trigger on the kick drum for lights but I can imagine a thrash band doing it and having 1/2 the audience falling prey to seizures. Your plan seems like a great idea! I'd love to hear about it if you were able to pull it off.
  9. johnbegone

    johnbegone

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Media:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Controlling multiple things with the midi mouse is going to be a challenge. It only broadcasts PC's on one channel. That means all of your midi devices will need to be on one channel. That's going to be real tough with your voicelive, you'll likely end up with a whole bunch of duplicate presets on either your hub or the voicelive.

    Hopefully that makes sense. If not, here's a real world example.
    Let's say you're on channel 1 for your midi mouse, SA hub and voicelive.
    Whenever you send a PC, it'll send it to both the hub and voicelive and change to those corresponding presets. That means if you want to change your voicelive during a chorus, for example, you'll also be simultaneously changing the hub, even if you don't want/need to. So if your "verse" is program change 5, and your voicelive needs PC 6 for your "chorus" your hub will also change to PC 6. So you may have to setup 5 and 6 to be identical on the hub so there's no change in your bass sound.

    It gets obnoxious quickly, and from there if you add a midi bypass looper, you'll have to do the same thing. Sometimes those loopers have a slight click sound when they change presets (I have an old Rocktron Patchmate rack unit), so even changing between duplicate presets on that maybe audible in your bass rig.

    I would highly recommend a more advanced midi controller with multiple channels. I mentioned a few in the SA thread, but the Peak stuff is quite good. With the Peak, you can change whatever you want, whenever you want, and not have to send duplicate messages.

    By the way, I really like the Rocktron Patchmate stuff if you're serious about racking your pedals, they have hard buttons on the front so you can easily toggle loops on and off without sending midi, for rehearsal or whatever. The Voodoo GCX is the other popular/cheap one, but it's loops are controlled with CC's not PC's, so that requires a more advanced midi controller as well.

    There are several floor units that are midi controllers and programmable bypass loopers simultaneously (so you can keep all your pedals on a board). Musicomlab, Disaster Area DPC-5, One Control Crocodile Tail, etc. but they get pricey.

    Edit: If you end up going down the midi rabbit hole, since you said your drummer is also triggering things already, it may make sense to move your band over to a computer based system with Ableton. Our whole set is programmed so it send click track to the drummers ears, samples out to the house, and midi signals to all our guitar/bass/vocal stuff. It's an investment in money and time but there no more tap dancing.
  10. Smallequestrian

    Smallequestrian Rock and/or Roll Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2004
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Disclosures:
    Beta Tester: Source Audio
    ++
    Remember, the Midi Mouse isn't saving anything, its just sending program change command to whatever is attached. Assuming the VoiceLive can save presets to a midi PC, then it should work the same way. If you are just using the VoiceLive and SA Hub, then you likely won't need anything other than the MidiMouse and a couple midi cables.
  11. Kazoo_Legend

    Kazoo_Legend Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2012
    Location:
    Central Valley CA
    Even if you wanted to change just the vocal FX and not your bass FX, you can save the same parameters twice, four times, 128 times. On my Mobius, I have the same chorus effect on 6 channels so that when the PC is received it doesn't change the effect. It can get tedious to set up, but it can be done. It won't always work depending on the FX unit receiving the code as far as speed is concerned, EVENTIDE comes to mind....
  12. godblender

    godblender Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2009
    Location:
    Michigan
    You might try giving Matthew at Disaster Area a shout out explaining your setup. He's very responsive and can "personalize" his midi controllers for various applications.

    Also check out the Sound Sculpture Switchblade 8F. You'd still a midi controller to use with it but its feature set is unmatched by any other product that I've come across.
  13. johnbegone

    johnbegone

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Media:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    You're right - I made that big post above explaining why this was annoying/tedious, but if Waldo is set on only programming those two devices, the midi mouse could work out fine. Not that big of a deal to store duplicate patches (this is even more tedious with the way the midi hub works, though, in comparison to something like the Mobius).
  14. WaldoNova

    WaldoNova Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2009
    Location:
    Yonkers, NY
    I was thinking about how the HUB works. So Rsmith has stated that the HUB doesn't care about presets. So if I had a chorus I liked and have saved I would have to make sure the knobs were in the right position while saving the "scene" because the HUB isn't reading the preset but instead is reading the knobs. Am I right about this?

    Thanks for all the replies guys. Tonight I am going to scour this thread and check out all of the suggestions.
  15. Smallequestrian

    Smallequestrian Rock and/or Roll Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2004
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Disclosures:
    Beta Tester: Source Audio
    Yes and no.

    It doesn't care about presets, however, when you recall the preset of your chorus, even though the knobs aren't in the correct physical position, what the Hub will record is what the preset setting happens to be. So if your chorus preset had the depth set at say 4 o'clock and you just activated the preset after playing with all the knobs (i.e. the physical knobs are all out of whack), internally the Orbital is still reporting the depth set at 4 o'clock.

    The hub also has a copy command that makes it easy to copy a whole scene from say program 6 and then also save it to program 7.
  16. johnbegone

    johnbegone

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Media:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    The hub doesn't care about the 2 stored presets on the pedal, no. It's just where the knobs are actively. So you can technically have 128 stored scenes on your hub, and two additional stored presets on the pedal itself. 130!

    I've got my sb2 pedals stored with some go to sounds on the pedals themselves, so I can quickly get to those without using the hub if need be.
  17. Kazoo_Legend

    Kazoo_Legend Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2012
    Location:
    Central Valley CA
    Can you save a scene on multiple presets or do you have to set the knobs and save everytime for every preset? That's one thing that is easy with Strymon, saving the same preset to multiple banks. But I see your point of having an exponential amount of work to do if the setting on the SA pedal needed to be at the spot you want for every program change setting. That's a lot of setup. Not to mention the frustration if and when you ever change your mind about a preset, then all the subsequential presets would have to be reset.
  18. johnbegone

    johnbegone

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Media:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Well smalleq is right that there is a Copy function on the hub. It's still a little tedious because you have to send a PC to the hub first before you can store a setting to it. That gets a little annoying when you are overwriting an existing scene, because the pedal will recall your stored scene, then you can make your changes and overwrite it. So it's not as easy and just dialing through PC's and storing storing storing to make duplicates, but the Copy function will make it easier on the first time setup. Once you're overwriting those, have fun. It may make sense to just unplug the multi-function cable from the hub or pedal before recalling a saved scene, then plugging it back in to store your current settings, if that makes any sense.
  19. Kazoo_Legend

    Kazoo_Legend Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2012
    Location:
    Central Valley CA
    Oh well that essentially is what I have to do with my Strymons too. It makes perfect sense to unplug so a PC isn't transmitted and then said preset/scene can be saved.
  20. Smallequestrian

    Smallequestrian Rock and/or Roll Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2004
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Disclosures:
    Beta Tester: Source Audio
    I thought this too, but when you're in copy mode on the hub, it ignores the PC command to change the scene. I've been beta testing the thing and didn't realize this until I read the manual yesterday.
  21. johnbegone

    johnbegone

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2004
    Media:
    1
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Nice, I haven't used the copy function at all - but this makes a lot more sense logically :) thanks for filling in.

Share This Page