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Mozart 35 discussion

Discussion in 'Orchestral Technique [DB]' started by crowsmengegus, Mar 15, 2012.


  1. crowsmengegus

    crowsmengegus

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Location:
    Saint Paul, MN
    Hello all, I'm working this piece up to perform it in about a week. So far so good.

    I'm looking for comments on the piece. Particularly:

    1. what bowing do you use for the opening (with the trill).

    2. what is your "comfortable" tempo for mvmt 4?

    3. what fingering do you prefer for the main licks in mvmt 4, including the "snake" at approx bar 134?

    4. on the string or off?

    I have my own ideas thus far, but I thought it would help my practice to try some things I may not have thought about....
     
  2. chicagodoubler

    chicagodoubler Supporting Member

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  3. crowsmengegus

    crowsmengegus

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
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    Thanks, I've seen that. I don't know if I'd call it great detail....

    Here's my take on a couple spots of the fingerings.

    Fourth movement intro:

    [​IMG]

    and the snake:

    [​IMG]
     
  4. skwee

    skwee

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    Location:
    Minneapolis
    I hope you have a good time playing it. It's my favorite Mozart symphony!
     
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  6. chicagodoubler

    chicagodoubler Supporting Member

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    Well, there ain't much to it. You just practice it til your fingers bleed. As far as specifics, Hal discusses throughout the tape the need for consistent fingerings, practicing the right hand separate ala the Zimmerman book, and for playing articulate passages off the string.

    Try taking the first lick and putting the whole thing in one big pivoted position. Some conductors like to take this brisk, and IME the shifting can slow this passage down. These wretched Mozart licks benefit heavily from contemporary fingerings; in 39 and 40 as well.

    Don't forget the variation in e minor with the dynamic shifts. That one's a doozie.

    The slurred passage- start 4 2 1 0.

    Hope this helps.
     
  7. thedbman4265

    thedbman4265

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Bloomington, IN
    to avoid some of the harder string crossings in the theme, one could play the G-F#-G-E as (D)2-1-(G)0-(D)1 or otherwise open the first G instead. Personal choice. Shifting up and hitting the C# spot on is even more difficult but if you have fast hands you could pull it off.
     
  8. AdmiralScreed

    AdmiralScreed

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2011
    You're playing Mozart 35 next week!? What a coincidence because I am too! :p

    I'll try and take a picture of my fingerings for the last movement and post it for you this weekend. If that doesn't work, I'll show them to you when I see you on Monday.
     
  9. crowsmengegus

    crowsmengegus

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    Location:
    Saint Paul, MN
    That's a bit of an understatement...

    Now we're talking. I was hoping a "contemporary" fingering might pop up in this thread.

    I tried everything across the string for the theme and didn't stick with it for some reason. I think it's because the string crossings are harder for me to get clearly than shifts (at least at practice tempo, which is half note = 125 at the moment). I'll admit though that when it goes to E I do it across the string because I don't have a better idea of what to do.

    The slurred passage one I'll try, thanks!
     
  10. kurt muroki

    kurt muroki

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    Location:
    New York City
    Does not need to be over practiced. Last mvmt can be worked out in 3 days. Just practice well!! Efficiency is key. Don't waste energy at all
     
  11. crowsmengegus

    crowsmengegus

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Saint Paul, MN
    Hi Kurt!

    Any tips for efficiency when it comes to something like this?

    My routine for the past few days has been:

    1. start the metronome at something comfortable, play through the hotspots a few times, then run the movement. Turn it up a few clicks and repeat.

    2. Set the metronome close to my target tempo (in my case half note = 144) and play through the hot spots doing two strokes per note (so half tempo for the left hand). I feel like this has helped me settle into the right stroke for the tempo, which is hard for me to do at slower tempi.
     
  12. crowsmengegus

    crowsmengegus

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  13. chicagodoubler

    chicagodoubler Supporting Member

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    crows,

    Take the first lick and run it Zimmerman style, with closed notes- D A D across the top three strings. Run the bowing pattern for the extended shape slowly, building as you become comfortable. Check out Hal's fingering. It works, obviously. Just work on the string crossing and articulation with the right hand. If you can't put the bow in the right place at the right time, the left hand can't help a bit.

    Find a fingering that works for you at a bright tempo and stick to it. Check your pitch often, record yourself constantly, and be honest with yourself.

    Regarding *how* to shed...

    Spend most of your time on the hard parts. If you have two glasses of water and you try to fill them, the empty one will always take more time to fill than the half empty one.

    Sorry for the bass yoda vibe.
     
  14. crowsmengegus

    crowsmengegus

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    No way, that's what I'm here for. Thanks for the tips.
     
  15. kurt muroki

    kurt muroki

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    Location:
    New York City
    Hiya. Well #1 there are a few things to think about when it comes to how to approach fast passages...

    When played slowly, fast passages should not sound great. In other words, to play fast, you need a lot less left hand contact than you would need for slow lyrical passages. Start with a good sound to work on intonation slowly, then when u r ready to start building up speed, play in a completely different way. Use so little LH contact that it slows the bow speed way way down. Should sound like it barely speaks. Then build up speed with a metronome. Making sure that you do not add any extra tension in the left hand. Bow speed should always be slow and compact. This allows you to maintain control at fast speeds. This is all from violin technique. The faster they play, the less contact they use and need.

    If you go for a great sound when practicing fast stuff slow, you are generally using way too much energy and are working too hard.
     
  16. crowsmengegus

    crowsmengegus

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    Thanks, very interesting. I'll try the light left hand contact thing this week and see how it goes.
     
  17. DC Bass

    DC Bass Supporting Member

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    "Three days?" :eyebrow:

    Please be so kind as to remember that our yellow sun affords you Kyptonians "enhanced abilities". :D

    Respectfully,

    Joe

    :cool:

    PS: Unless you were talking about Venus...then it wouldn't even be one day!
     
  18. DC Bass

    DC Bass Supporting Member

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    Seriously though- great thread! Thanks to the OP and all who have contributed!

    Sincerely,

    Joe
     
  19. Blakewdm

    Blakewdm

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    Jun 17, 2008
    yeah, Im not entirely convinced that thing can be learned in three days starting from scratch.....
     
  20. chicagodoubler

    chicagodoubler Supporting Member

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    /\ Agreed, albeit with much respect to Mr. Muroki. Many of us work on this piece for decades and are still not happy with the results. Whether this is an issue with pedagogy or our sheer mortality is a question for the ages.

    That being said, the method the Maestro suggests is universally espoused, but rarely voiced so concisely for the double bass. A fast passage should be practiced the way it will be executed up to full tempo- with very little bow and a light touch. Extraneous effort plus speed equals hand problems and poor execution.
     
  21. jbass47

    jbass47

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2010
    3 days is possible; I believe Mr. Muroki has seen it from experience, if what I heard was true.

    As for the excerpt, the stroke is on the string, not off. Stick bounce. Looks like its off, but its really not.
     

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