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My .5 Aligned Sealed 610 Build

Discussion in 'Amps [BG]' started by 5StringPocket, Dec 21, 2012.

  1. 5StringPocket

    5StringPocket Supporting Member

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    The design for this got started in the vintage cts drivers thread and I'll blame kringle77 for stoking my curiosity :D
    http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/t-s-parameters-vintage-cts-8x10-drivers-915820/index5.html

    I've owned and played ported 410 cabs for years. They seem to have the right amount of power and punch for a good stage cab. I like the voicing of a 10" driver for a contrast to my 12-loaded cabs but the 2x2 arrangement is not optimum for dispersion. For me, the .5 aligned sealed 610 seemed like a good single cab solution for rock and blues gigs where there is a FOH system to carry the room but you want a tight solid vintage tone that can hang well in a loud onstage mix. There are, of course, a number of very capable systems that do this well but this particular configuration looked interesting so I wanted to give it a shot. The 610 form factor can pack a good wallop but still be easy to move around. I like the Berg NV610 sound but not the 36"Hx24"W 100lb form factor. I'm not getting any younger and need to be able to carry this thing up and down two flights of stairs. I ended up with a 33"Hx23"Wx16"D box with a vertical divider which creates two subchambers of 3 drivers each. A 12mm Oukume box and bracing with an 18mm birch ply baffle should be quite stout and weigh somewhere between 70-75 lbs finished with castors, side and tiltback handles, rear skid rails, and a perforated steel grill to protect the speakers.

    Here is the dimensional drawing, top view of the internal bracing, and wiring diagram.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Following the testing kringle77 did with a variety of sealed 10 drivers, I went with 4 CTS Fliptop neos and 2 Weber 10FL. I was going to try 3 CTS neos in the low-passed side and 3 Webers in the full range side, but the CTS neos have a better bass reponse so I decided to load a CTS neo in the lower spot on the full range side. I think these drivers should work well together to give a tight solid bass, nice even mids with some growl, and enough treble extension not to sound too dark.

    Here is a list of supplies. This doesn't include shipping/handling so the total cost is about $975 for this DIY project. I don't cut corners on materials or components so you have to be pretty confident going into a build like this that it's going to work out. Anyone who whines about a custom builder wanting $1000 for a med/large cab with premium components needs to just buy used. This stuff isn't cheap.

    2 Weber 10FL $206.00 https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/bass10fl.html
    4 CTS Neo Fliptops $300.00 http://www.fliptops.net
    3 Acousta-Stuf Polyfill 1 lb bags $32.40 http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=260-317
    2 Dayton Audio PH114 Plastic Pocket Handle $8.72 http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=262-824
    1 Neutrik NL4MP-ST Speakon 4-Pole $3.15 http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=092-053
    1 Penn-Elcom M1503 ABS Dish One 1/4" + One Neutrik D/NL4MP $1.79 http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=262-346
    8 Penn Elcon Chevron Corner $4.00 http://www.speakerhardware.com/penn-elcom-chevron-corner.php
    1 Small Right angle handle $9.95 http://www.speakerhardware.com/small-right-angle-handle.php
    2' Pet Screen 36" $5.10 http://www.speakerhardware.com/pet-screen-48.php
    2 Duratex Roller Grade Pint $29.00 http://www.speakerhardware.com/duratex-roller-grade-pint.php
    1 31" Cab Slider Rail $14.95 http://socalskateshop.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=9836
    1 4.7mH 16ga ESQ - Super Q Coil $18.73 http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/SuperQCoils16Gauge/ESQ55-16-4700
    1 22.0μF 250v PulseX - Capacitor $6.51 http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/PulseX250v/MPX25-03-22-00
    2 Recessed Tilt Caster, BLACK - RH-9024BK $18.00 http://www.reliablehardware.com/mediumrecessedtiltcasterhousingblack.aspx
    2 Front Leveling Set - RH-1609 $2.00 http://www.reliablehardware.com/frontlevelingset-rh-1609.aspx
    1 Speaker Grill 5/32'' Dia. Staggered - RH-3152 $64.28 http://www.reliablehardware.com/customspeakergrill-532diastaggered.aspx
    1 4' x 8' Sheet 12mm Okoume ply $130.00 Houston Hardwoods
    1 2' x 4' Handi Panel 18mm Birch ply $20.00 Home Depot
    2 PL Premium adhesive $8.00 Home Depot
    50 #8 1" Particle board screws $5.00 Home Depot
    1 Twin size mattress topper $14.00 Target
    Sub Total (without shipping/handling) $901.58

    You can do these projects with a pretty modest shop area. I don't own a table saw, drill press, lathe, joiner, or many other power tools a serious woodworker would have. I have the lumber yard make two sizing cuts at specified widths on the 4'x8' sheet to give 3 reasonably sized pieces which are easy to load and work on. I use a router, 4' straight edge, framing square, tape measure, clamps, and a Black & Decker Benchmate for all large cuts. With careful measurement pieces are square with tolerance within 1/32". For small piece cutoffs and miters on all the brace pieces I picked up a cheap plastic miter box from Home Depot - $8 with saw included. This turned out to be extremely useful. Here are some construction shots:

    Baffle with speakers and bracing placed for fit...
    [​IMG]

    An exploded view of the back, sides, and divider. The angled corner braces are just placed for location and will be mounted mid-way between front and back. Spline braces are provided for stiffening and cutouts for handles and jack plates are reinforced with extra wood as shown.
    [​IMG]

    This is a bottom view looking up to show the angle braces which provide added stability to the front baffle and vertical divider. There is 14" between the front baffle and back panel. The baffle is inset 7/8" to accommodate a grill with 3/4" bent edges. The lone corner brace is not quite in position. They will be set in position and mounted once the bottom is attached.
    [​IMG]
  2. bgavin

    bgavin Supporting Member

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    Interesting amount of detail.
    Point noted about carrying up stairs, so why not build as a pair of 2x3 instead?
    You have them separated already with a vertical baffle.
    This would allow for optional bi-amping, should you wind up disliking the 500 Hz crossover.

    I've not looked at numbers, but ask if you have considered the T/S ramifications of running dissimilar Weber and CTS full range drivers in the same chamber?

    The D2 sealed (0.577 Bessell) does indeed provide the tightest response, albeit with a roll-off in the bottom. Vintage tone, for sure.
    The vented SBB4 is similar, but not quite as tight, but with a bit more bottom.
  3. astack

    astack Supporting Member

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    Subbed. That kicker bracing should be rock solid. Looks killer so far.

    Did you ever try that Tiger Ply?
  4. 5StringPocket

    5StringPocket Supporting Member

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    I have a pair of Baer ML112 which have me well covered for a modular rig and it's easier to build and move one larger box with a divider rather than two smaller boxes. Handle placement, weight distribution, and outer dimensions are important in making a large box manageable. I'm 5'10" 170 lbs and have to be nice to my lower back so this is my do not exceed criteria. I've found this set of dimensions, max weight, and handle placement to be manageable. Also, if I ever want to ship this it will fit in a U-Haul small wardrobe box. I don't have any plans for biamping since these drivers are similar (not like a 15" woofer with a 6" mid) but the 500 Hz low pass filter has an on/off switch so it can be run .5 aligned or traditional full range.

    I've thought about the T/S ramifications but from what I've seen with Kringle77's experiments the drivers seem close enough to blend well. Adding volume to the chambers didn't seem to lower the F3 much but significantly reduced excursion limited max power. This build should have an excursion limited max of about 550 watts around 75 Hz. With the given driver sensitivity it should be capable of about 130dB above 110 Hz. This should be enough to be a hammer.

    I looked into using Tiger ply but only 18mm was available so I went with light weight 12mm Okoume which I've had good success with on previous builds.

    More construction pics. Here is a front view of the assembled box. All edges were made flush, then rounded with a 1/4" radius bit. Nail holes and any gouges were filled with Bondo spot putty before sanding the box for finishing. Note the corner braces in their proper position.
    [​IMG]

    Here is a rear/side view which shows the handle and jack mounting locations. Cutouts weren't made for the castors until they were received so that dimensions could be verified. weight of the box at this stage is 32.6 lbs.
    [​IMG]
  5. will33

    will33

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    Nice detail, man. And your construction scheme looks nice and solid without adding any unnecessary weight.

    I had also wondered about that lone neo on the bottom there but it looks like it'd be easy enough to add a panel under that bottom angle brace there should you decide you want it in it's own chamber. Judging from Kringles thread, they do seem to play nice together, although I believe his are all in their own chambers.


    I didn't catch what impedance individual driverw you're using but I guess this could be considered a nominal impedance of 5.33 below the filter and 2.67 above it or something like that?

    All in all, looks like nice quality work. I've been shying away from the Weber stuff due to the lack of specs and not being able to predict what I'll get until after I bought it, but thanks to our resident TB guinea pig (Kringle), I'm getting a little bug for a tube amp friendly 4ohm 410 in the voicing of the old flatbacks. Don't know that I'll follow through on that anytime soon, but at least a viable option is out there.


    Again, nice detailed, quality looking work.

    I too am on the fence sometimes about just how handy small and modular is when it means extra trips. A smart build with well thought out ergonomics/handle placement, etc. makes it more convenient sometimes to just make one trip with a bit larger, but easy to handle box. My little 112's pack in small cars easy but there's only been exactly 2 gigs in 2 years where I've only used one of them.
  6. kringle77

    kringle77 Supporting Member

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    Nice job man! What a build. The only other suggestions I have is that you definitely use wool batting inside the cab, it made a huge difference. You will have to experiment with the amount. Mine is probably overstuffed. 2nd, if you need more top, mids or aggression in the sound, use a guitar driver in the top of the cab in its own little chamber and highpassed. My current cab is running 7 svt neo's and a guitar 10". It really filled in the 600-1k range where the neos' and all the other svt speakers have a dip. You would have to pad yours back alittle depending on the guitar driver. Maybe an eminence copperhead.
  7. rpsands

    rpsands

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    I think you'd have better performance overall if you put a guitar driver in the top left, sealed it into a smaller box, and replaced the second weber with a CTS, but just this man's opinion :)
  8. will33

    will33

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    IIRC, the Weber FL's and the neos reach fairly high, somewhat like a typical 810 does, but the guitar drivers are really cool for some extra brightness and especially some cone cry/character when you pass them down around a few hundred hz....let them "work" a little bit and put their flavor on the mids. There are so many guitar drivers out there with different behaviours/flavors you can really personalize your sound with them.
  9. 5StringPocket

    5StringPocket Supporting Member

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    Thanks for the input. The drivers are all 32 ohm (wiring diagram above). Nominal impedance is 5.33 ohms below the filter and 10.67 above it. My Genz Benz amps are rated 900 watts at 4ohms and 500 watts at 8 ohms so the power match should be good. I would never have invested in the Weber or the CTS neo if it wasn't for all the testing kringle77 did but I'm pretty sure these drivers will play well in this configuration.

    There are so many possible permutations it's enough to make your head spin, but from the post above I just decided to build with this set of drivers and see how it plays. There is already a 2nd order filter, switch, numerous wiring junctions, and extensive bracing in place. I didn't want to further complicate the build so I gave up the idea of a separate sub chamber with a guitar driver and high pass filter. I'm sure it would sound great and Alex incorporates this into his Barefaced 69er as well, but these 10's have a pretty good high end as is and should be brighter than the Berg NV610. The Weber 10FL and CTS neos have slightly different coverage in the mids so I'm hoping that together they'll blend well and provide good mid presence. This won't be a slappers cab but should sound nice fingerstyle or with a pick where too much extended high end sounds clacky.
  10. bgavin

    bgavin Supporting Member

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    Yours is a bit smaller than my T39 horn at 39x27x16".
    T39 is an easy move for everything except stairs.
    Skid rails on the back are a huge plus.

    I'm glad to see you have it well thought out to suit your particular needs.
    There is no end to well-intentioned comments from the peanut gallery, but you are the one who has to be satisfied in the end.
  11. kringle77

    kringle77 Supporting Member

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    Your cab will have less mid mids than the berg but, more top and bottom. Nothing out there has the same midrange that those bergs have. What you end up doing is picking which sound direction you want to go in. I still haven't picked one over the other and play both. There's no way to lose there.:)
  12. rpsands

    rpsands

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    Pretty sure from Kringle's reviews I would just use all fliptops drivers in something like this, maybe do the .5 alignment filter only. Kinda got me interested in making a vertical 2x10 for recording or something :)
  13. kringle77

    kringle77 Supporting Member

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    Using only fliptops you get a sound very similar to the B810 drivers but with a tighter bottom. Alittle clearer too. I really think that another driver is a must to add some attitude to the sound. At least for me and my bass, amp, etc. Eventually Im going to get a copperhead to compare to the celestion Im using now. I built my cab for experimentation and it's not perfect yet. But, neither is any other cab I've owned either. Tradeoffs man.
  14. 5StringPocket

    5StringPocket Supporting Member

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    My thought was to go with the fliptop sound but use the Webers to add some mids and attitude. I think the 3+3 would have been too bass-shy but am looking forward to the 4+2 for a good balance of the two drivers. If they weren't pretty similar in their overall character I wouldn't be as comfortable mixing them like this.

    Three coats of Duratex is done and the hardware is mounted. The baffle got all smooth coats while the rest of the box got an initial smooth coat followed by two heavy textured coats. Great stuff to work with but this box took both pints. If I end up building another box I was thinking of starting with a coat of Kilz to seal and prime the wood. It's a lot cheaper than Duratex and would help it go farther.

    Here are a couple more construction pics. I put 2" thick urethane foam on the back panel like I've used for my ported cabs to dampen the back wave. It's breathable but slightly denser than mattress topping.
    [​IMG]

    This pic shows the pet screen I used to separate the chambers and help keep the acoustic stuffing in place. Double sided carpet tape and a staple gun did the trick.
    [​IMG]

    Here is a closer view of the 2nd order low pass filter, selector switch, and wiring harness. Wall nuts provide a solid electrical junction and are easy to use for joining several wires. This all needs to be in place before piling in the stuffing.
    [​IMG]
  15. JimmyM

    JimmyM Supporting Member

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    Wow, your stuff looks like you know what you're doing! Nice!
  16. JGR

    JGR The "G" is for Gustav Supporting Member

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    Cool, and thanks for sharing - we need more DIY threads on TB! Looks like your off to a great start! I would lose the wire nuts once you have everything dialed in.
  17. 5StringPocket

    5StringPocket Supporting Member

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    I hear what you're saying but have had zero issues with these push fit wire nuts in cabs for years - much better than twist ons. I used 14 gauge twisted strand for the main wiring and 16 gauge for the individual spurs to each speaker. I had to file a pointed tip on the 14 gauge to remove any burr so the wire inserts properly. Once in, those springy jaws make good contact and that wire is in for good. For long term corrosion resistance solder is best but with the number of 4-way joints in this harness these worked out quite well.
  18. JGR

    JGR The "G" is for Gustav Supporting Member

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    Ah, gotcha. I couldn't see the nuts on my phone and assumed you were using the screw on type. Those look pretty spiffy. Continue....
  19. 5StringPocket

    5StringPocket Supporting Member

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    It's getting late but I got the chambers stuffed and the drivers loaded. I read the post about wool stuffing in the Bergantino cabs but already had this material ordered. Acousta-Stuf is a nylon polyamide fiber used for sound absorption and damping in speaker systems, spot absorption panels, and bass attenuation traps. It claims to offer better absorption characteristics across a wider frequency range than wool because of its higher surface area per volume and its tendency not to compress or clump. I used this to stuff a midrange chamber on a previous build and it seemed to perform well. Directions say for most sealed and vented enclosures .5 lb/ft3 is adequate and sealed enclosures may be loosely stuffed, but even after fluffing and loosening 3 lb didn't fill the chambers to my satisfaction. I made a run to Target and picked up a twin sized 1.5" convoluted foam mattress topper. Inserting a layer of foam around all four sides of the four corner chambers and on inner and outer sides of the mid chambers created individual foam baskets for the Acousta-Stuff to fill. Having the screens in place really helped here. This resulted in a nice even fill with no exposed wood.

    The Webers had no rear gasket so I applied gasket tape to provide a better seal. I originally bought 50 tee nuts but didn't get the matching screws and couldn't get them at a reasonable price from a local store so I just used 1" #8 particle board screws with nice wide threads to secure the drivers to the baffle. With the drivers in, I used a speakon cable with a banana plug at the other end and a 9 volt battery to make sure all the drivers moved the same direction. This verified all drivers were in phase and I didn't get a wire swapped. DC resistance of the cab is 5.2 ohms. I should be able to fire this up tomorrow.

    [​IMG]
  20. JimmyM

    JimmyM Supporting Member

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    No rear gaskets on the Webers? That's bizarre.

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