Need Help With Changes: Dat Dere

Discussion in 'Jazz Technique [DB]' started by rasbass, Jan 5, 2014.


  1. rasbass

    rasbass

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    Upstate NY
    I am working on a lead sheet for the Bobby Timmons tune Dat Dere, from the Art Blakey version, in Cm. (Same as in the Cannonball version and in the Timmons version). Got the intro, the AABA, the solos, the out chorus, but just can not get those last three chords.

    There are three final formatas. It sounds to me like three consecutive chords, all with C in the melody, with chromatically descending bass notes- Eb, D, and finally Db (yes- it never resolves).

    The harmony over the D sounds like a Dm7(b5), and the final chord sounds like a Db maj7. But for the life of me I can not figure out the harmony over the Eb. Every harmonization I can think of sounds either bad, awful, or merely wrong.

    Of course I have listening to this over and over so maybe my ears are sick of the tune.

    Anyone able to set me straight on this?
    Thanks.
  2. iona bass

    iona bass Supporting Member

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    rasbass,

    Try Cmi/Eb, D7b9, Dbmaj7.
    Thanks,
  3. rasbass

    rasbass

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    Ah- the D7(b9) is much better than the Dm7(b5);
    I had tried the Cmi/Eb but it did not sound exactly right- might just be my voicing- so I'll take it.

    I know I should be able to figure these out myself- but sometimes it just does not happen. Thanks for the prompt response.
  4. iona bass

    iona bass Supporting Member

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    rasbass,

    Try these voicings: ( at the piano?):

    (Eb in the bass) - G, middle C, Eb. (It could also be named "Eb add6").
    (D in the bass) - F#, middle C, Eb.
    (Db in the bass) - F natural, middle C, Eb.

    This may not be exactly what the pianist is playing, but I think it conveys the harmony in an economical way.
    Thanks for your time and interest.
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  6. Srkurz

    Srkurz

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    I think the mystery Eb chord is an EbMaj7 add6 or just an Eb6 chord.
  7. rasbass

    rasbass

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    Hmmmm.... somehow neither the Cm/Eb nor the Eb6 sound spot on to me. I do like the Eb Maj7, but I can not tell if that's exactly correct.

    I will continue to play around with it (and continue to listen to those three chords over and and over :- )

    Thanks all.
  8. hdiddy

    hdiddy Official Forum Flunkee Supporting Member

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    Did you try figuring out what the piano is playing on that last flourish? Wouldn't that help?
  9. rasbass

    rasbass

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    The last flourish seems to be on the Db Maj7- that one is not really the problem, nor are the bass notes. It really the precise harmony over the Eb bass on the third to last chord.

    Thanks.
  10. tcl

    tcl Gold Supporting Member

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    I got the same as Don except for the middle chord. There I hear an E Natural rather than the Eb, making it a D9.
  11. hdiddy

    hdiddy Official Forum Flunkee Supporting Member

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    +1 on the E too but take what I say with a heaping grain of salt.
  12. iona bass

    iona bass Supporting Member

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    rasbass,

    I don't hear any 7th ( major 7 or dominant 7) in the "Ebadd6" chord in the voicing being played on the recording. (Just my 2 cents).
    Also- I, myself, have also witnessed an "auditory mirage" after many, repeated/consecutive listenings to a small fragment of music(!). Be Careful!
    Thanks,
  13. rasbass

    rasbass

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    Hi Don-

    Thanks for the "auditory mirage" warning. I am already hearing things in the penultimate chord (the D chord)- D7? D7(9)? D7(b9)? I could swear I hear a whole step in there but I can not find it.

    And the prepenultimate chord (the Eb)? The Eb6 sounds closest to me, but just does not quite feel 100% to me. I listened to a few more versions- makes my head (and ears) spin.

    Funny the lengths one goes to for the three final chords, especially since at the gig maybe only one person outside the group would realize we nailed it- and there are many other endings that would work fine- but I still would love to get it.

    Thanks folks for all the input.
  14. iona bass

    iona bass Supporting Member

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    rasbass,

    Maybe it's just this:?
    ( Eb in the bass) - G, middle C = Eb add6.
    ( D in the bass) - F#, middle C = D7 ( No b9 or natural 9).
    ( Db in the bass) - F, middle C = Db maj7.

    (Earlier, I think I "added/hallucinated" a b9 on the D7 that is not there).
    The Cannonball Adderley version is a better recording quality, but almost identical arrangement - esp. the final 3 fermatas.
    Thanks.
  15. John Goldsby

    John Goldsby Supporting Member

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    Wouldn't it be great if we could just watch Bobby Timmons play the ending? That's a different version probably than what you are listening to, but Timmons probably plays the same voicings at the end.



    It seems to be what Don/Ionabass is saying: He hits and holds the top note, middle C on every chord. Below that, he plays a tremolo with the root/fifth/third of every chord:



    Eb Bb G C

    D A F# C

    Db Ab F C
  16. rasbass

    rasbass

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    I agree- that seems the best fit.

    It is way more fun working these things out with you all than sitting alone driving myself crazy.

    Thanks all.
  17. iona bass

    iona bass Supporting Member

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    Did Stevie Wonder listen to Bobby Timmons?

    Check out the intro figure ( the first 0:14 seconds).
    It's nearly identical, just down a step ( and with a Db on the top of each chord)...and finally moves to Bb7 and then resolves( V-I) to Ebmajor.



    Thanks for your time and interest.
  18. John Goldsby

    John Goldsby Supporting Member

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    I think every jazz/pop/R&B piano player in the '60s was well aware of Bobby Timmons. He has an unmistakable touch, 8th-note feeling, and the knack for making everything resonate with the blues, even when he's not playing a blues. "Overjoyed" is very similar, but I wouldn't say Stevie "got" it from Bobby. The progression is pretty common.

    Another similar progression would be the last 4 bars of "One Note Samba," key of Bb with an F in the melody. Although the harmony is different, and the third is in the melody of the DbMaj7 chord:

    DbMaj7, Cmin11, B7#11, Bb6

    If we put our minds to it, we can come up with lots of similar progressions, like . . .
  19. rasbass

    rasbass

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    I'm a Man- Steve Winwood/ Chicago version: Eb-D-Db-Cm7

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