OH NO! did Warmoth screw up my PJ rout?

Discussion in 'Luthier's Corner' started by akori, Jul 7, 2013.


  1. akori

    akori Supporting Member

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    Ugh!
    I have researched this, but I'm not finding any consensus...
    I will soon be getting an otherwise sweet ultra-light alder P bass from Warmoth with a P-J rout...they had it unfinished in the showcase. Looking at the pic of the unpainted body, the P and J puP routs look really close. Like the J is closer to the P than even the 1960s position for a J...which to my thinking would be absurdly stupid for a few reasons.
    Does Warmoth just plunk that J rout real close to the P rout? Gawd, I hope not. I'll call them in the AM, but with my luck, this is an arbitrary placement and it's already been painted. I'm thinking if they did this, I'm hammered with a crappy non-J sound and will be obliged to rout the crap out of it and drop in an MM PuP to save the beast...
    Tell me it ain't so! Or give me the unkind truth...
    Anyone know what I'm talkin' about?

    Thanks
     
  2. SlingBass4

    SlingBass4 Supporting Member

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    Seems to me you've been doing this (playing) long enough...

    Pics, measurements, and/or more details might help with finding assistance from this crowd :meh:
     
  3. Kael

    Kael

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    Check out a few other pics of P/J routed bodies and compare them. The P spot is much closer to the bridge J spot than a J neck spot is. I've thought that it looks a little too close myself a couple times when looking at empty P/J bodies.

    I'd be surprised if Warmoth ehf'd up as bad as putting a route in the wrong spot.
     
  4. INTP

    INTP

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  6. akori

    akori Supporting Member

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    Sling bass:
    I'd definitely post a pic of this very body, but...there's no way I can do it. the old link to post directly is nowhere I can se it, and I haven't a website to post it to to copy the URl...
     
  7. WaskoDS

    WaskoDS

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    imgur.com is a good one
     
  8. Ric5

    Ric5 Supporting Member

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    Really ... I mean really???

    If you are that fussy then do the work yourself ...

    :rollno:
     
  9. akori

    akori Supporting Member

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    Thanks for the useful replies. (PIC URL BELOW) Just wondered if anyone here could confirm the disparate posts (here and on Unofficial Warmoth.com) that Warmoth has historically, at times, placed the J farther to the front than the 60s position, compromising the natural J tone, as well as the sound of poth PuPs run together. I have to talk to Warmoth tomorrow re; this issue, and they have the upper hand, seeing as they have my money.Hopefully it's at least in the 60s position, or they'll refund me. Here's the URL: (thanks WaskoDS)

    http://imgur.com/FRFLMb0
     
  10. bigmoosepi

    bigmoosepi

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    [​IMG]

    j pickup placement with the deluxe is right, and off compared to the tony franklin, and the p matches the tony franklin but not the deluxe.

    weird.
     
  11. akori

    akori Supporting Member

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    bigmoosepi:
    Thank you! You, sir, are the S***T. How'd you do that?

    Great job, man.
    Thanks to you, I can correlate your measurements with a post I gotta dig up that details which Fender PJ-thing has which spacing. There is indeed an oddity here.
    Did I mention You're the S**T?

    P.S: It is repeated that the Tony Franklin utilizes 70s spacing for the J....
     
  12. akori

    akori Supporting Member

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    FWIW: trying to sort this out with an older post I relocated; the weirdness continues.
    Apparently this (particular) Warmoth route places the J in the 60s position, and the P in the traditional P position. That would certainly be acceptable. THANKS TO anubis 16 and bigmoosepi for sleuthing this out. You both rock

    anubis16
    Registered User

    Join Date: Feb 2009
    P/J Pickup Location Discovery
    I was recently comparing several fender basses and discovered something interesting about P/J basses that most people don't seem to know.

    First of all, nearly every P/J pickup has the J pickup in the 70's location. A lot of people wonder why the J pickup sounds so thin soloed, there's your answer. (the 70's location is about 1/2 and inch closer to the bridge than the 60's location).

    However I noticed something else interesting. A few fender basses had the J pickup in the 60's location, yet the distance between the J and P pickups seemed consistent between the two models (measured from the center of each coil) so that the J pickup and the EA P coil were the same distance apart as a regular Jazz bass.

    This means that there are two distinct Fender P/J setups. Each has the same distance between both pickups, but one has the pickups 1/2 an inch closer to the bridge (J in 70's) and one 1/2 an inch closer to the neck (J in 60's).

    Upon realizing this I made yet another discovery. The models with the 70's J position had the P bass pickup right where it is on a normal P bass. And since the distance between the pickups on all the versions is the same as a normal JJ setup, this means that the distance between the neck J pickup and the bass P coil in regular fender models is the same distance between the 60's and 70's bridge pickup locations.

    This is all tricky to explain without diagrams, so I hope it makes sense. But this means that the 70's bridge pickup location is not as arbitrary as it seems...

    Current models:
    P/J with P in normal location J in 70's location (most common):
    -Tony Franklin Signature Precision models
    -Deluxe Precision special
    -Aerodyne Precision (discontinued)
    -Duff Mcagen Signature Precision
    -Frank Bello Jazz Signature
    -(many many many discontinued models)

    P/J with P 1/2 inch closer to the neck and J in 60's location:
    -Aeorodyne Jazz bass
    -Reggie Hamilton Signature Jazz
    -Most MIJ p/j basses
     
  13. MPU

    MPU

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    You really think that you can hear the difference when pickup is a few mm closer or further to the bridge?
     
  14. tjclem

    tjclem

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    What he said.....
     
  15. jamminology101

    jamminology101

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    The warmoth has the 1/2" closer p pickup with the 60s bridge pickup...seems pretty optimum to me...more snap and growl on the p with the fuller bridge sound. I think shes a winner...
     
  16. Matthijs

    Matthijs

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    But the phasing will cause a way bigger mid scoop. Not nescessarily a bad thing, depends on your taste.
     
  17. akori

    akori Supporting Member

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    MPU & TJClem:
    Can I hear the difference in 1/2 inch positioning variance in the J pickup?
    Absolutely. But we don't all have the same ears or the same brains. Especially on a fretless, but even on a fretted, I swear that ebony is "brighter" than maple, because to my brain, it's attack and overall timbre sound "brighter" to me. Roger Sadowsky has gone on record emphatically disagreeing. Scores of fretless bass players and luthiers might disagree with him, but there's no questioning his overall taste, instincts and intent.
    Seriously, you can't hear the difference in 70s vs 60s J position?
    Kidding!
     
  18. akori

    akori Supporting Member

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    Jamminology101:
    Thanks for the input.
    I love the 70s position, but at the end of the day, if the body/neck/PuP communication is all good, there's plenty of burp in the 60s position. I hope it is a winner, this piece of alder was only 3 lbs, 15 oz! (I need light weight, 'cos I have a guitar or bass on my shoulder on average about five hours a day every day).
    From what you wrote, and what you and MATTHIJS wrote, it appears the P has been repositioned? uhhh..., I'm callin' Warmoth now. I can't imagine why they'd mess with that...even though it might sound favorable to some ears, mine included. For God's sake, it's a P bass. Why mess with it's central feature?
     
  19. akori

    akori Supporting Member

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    Matthijs and Jamminology:
    Just talked to a rep at Warmoth; he said this rout is a copy of the 1970s deluxe (I didn't know Fender made a PJ in the 70s).
    He said the P is in the traditional position, whereas the J is in the 60s position.
    Yet, it's been said here, and elsewhere, that the P itself has been repositioned. It LOOKS like it has, but bigmoosepi posted that awesome scale comparison indicating that the P is trad. If indeed the Tony Franklin P is trad. Well, it looks like I'll have to get this to see.
    Thanks
     
  20. akori

    akori Supporting Member

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    MATTHIJS:
    The "phase" issue is important. Thanks for the reminder; I assume you mean that when running BOTH PuPs together, their position relative to each other creates some out-of-phase situation? (And, I'm assuming there is no effect with soloed PuPs?)

    There are so many ways to compromise a design. (!)
     
  21. akori

    akori Supporting Member

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    If this ends up being the case, it might be very nice. I'd be bummed, though, as I'd like to have the real throaty ...excuse me for writing this, "mwah," that a P pickup can produce. I have one fretless P with an uncoated Madagascar rosewood board that not only has "mwah," it has "moo." It grunts and moos like a cow. I swear it's so ballsy! I used to pass on fretless Ps, with the wrong-headed idea that they were too inarticulate. I've slowly learned over the decades that it's about the alchemy of ALL the parts. This one fretless P changed everything for me. I always loved Tony Franklin, but due to poor setup, whenever I played a fretless 70s P boat anchor in the past, I thought it would just make toxic firewood. Anyway, I'm looking for the best of both worlds thing here; J neck for the slightly nasally tone it's thinness imparts, a good P for the "moo," and a J for the "mwah." Can't believe I just wrote that.
    Thanks
     

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