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One half stack to rule them all...(guitard content).

Discussion in 'Amps [BG]' started by CID Vicious, Mar 16, 2014.


  1. CID Vicious

    CID Vicious

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2013
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    So, like a few other TB members I also play guitar. I'm into heavier rock styles for both instruments. I'd like to figure out a gig rig that would work for both instruments...

    I'm buying a Laney AOR 100W head off of a friend in a week or so. Tis a beast. LOVE the distortion. Typically I'm a Tech 21 guy but for three bills I'm getting a near perfect sound. If nothing else GREAT studio head.

    However for live gigs I'm on the fence...typically I just find some amplification for my Tri-A.C. based pedalboard. Clean loud solid state...I liked the Tri AC so much I bought 2, one for effects one dry and switched by ABY. Could utilize the Laney to power the board, or as the 'dry' channel. If I loved the Laney sound enough to use live, I could get away with a stereo 4x12 - half for the Laney, half for the pedalboard.

    So...for power on the "effect" side I've been looking at a micro head. Since I need a medium duty bass amp anyway.

    Just tried the MB200 and the "black" Little Mark 250. I liked the latter better with a similar SUB SB4/Sterling copy even though the LM isn't supposed to be a "rock guy" amp. I figure a BDDI/BDI21 in front can take care of that, and seemed way louder than the MB200 did for nominally more.

    So...any chance I could choose carefully and end up with a rig that can gig for both bass and guitar? I'm looking for opinions on:

    - Using a micro head as a guitarist's 'pedalboard amp' - experience? Drawbacks? Always have the effects return...

    - Speaker cabs that could cut the mustard with either instrument in a metal setting.

    I hear of Doom guys using full SVT rigs but I have a more thrash/Sabbath/Tool kind of tonality. D, drop C - low but not ridiculously so.

    So...straight front 4x12 with EV's or equivalent bass/pa speakers?

    4 x10 bass cab no tweeter?

    Quit being a gear tard and accept the necessity if a cab for each job?

    Get the Laney running on all four EL34's, ditch the micro head and let the modified JCM800 power stage run the bass show too?

    Thanks for the patience...I know a lot of you have experimented along these lines...
     
  2. CID Vicious

    CID Vicious

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2013
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    Sound samples at soundclick.com/mettayax..."The Harness", "I Am Nothing" are kinda typical.
     
  3. CL400Peavey

    CL400Peavey Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2011
    Location:
    Grand Rapids Michigan
    Greenboy Dually with 3015's would get my vote.
     
  4. JGR

    JGR The "G" is for Gustav

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Location:
    Maryland
    Disclosures:
    President, CEO, CFO, CIO, Chief Engineer, Technician, Janitor - Reiner Amplification
    I play both guitar and bass (and build my own amps and cabs for both) - best commercially available cabs for double duty IME would be a Berg NV412 or Bag End S12 or S15D stack. I have a video of the BE's doing double duty on my YT page. I run EVs for guitar but they won't cut it for bass.

    For preamps maybe a Sansamp PSA or AxeFxII if you can swing it. Pair with a decent power amp and you'll be ready to go.
     
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  6. CID Vicious

    CID Vicious

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2013
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
  7. monsterthompson

    monsterthompson The Eighth Note Wonder Of The World Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Location:
    Hollywood
  8. Forrrest

    Forrrest

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    came here to say this.
    nice top end for guitars (without a tweeter)
    full low end!
     
  9. CID Vicious

    CID Vicious

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2013
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    The Berg is definitely the Cadillac option. However, it also cost more than what I paid for every Mercedes I've owned.

    The TC BC212 looks like the cab I'm looking for. Good reviews on bass too.

    For the micro head I think the Ampeg PF500 is the best mix of my wants and needs. Think it's easily wiogrth the C note over the MB200, and it'd be almost as much to get a Little Mark 250 + BDI21. Funk the nonsense - pocket SVT and all the power I'd need or want for guitar. Into the input for Doom effect return for anything else.

    Preamp and power amp could happen, but for now I think the smaller footprint and lower weight are worth any trade offs. Add a good 410 to the BC212 and I doubt I'll need more anytime soon.
     
  10. CL400Peavey

    CL400Peavey Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2011
    Location:
    Grand Rapids Michigan
    1. That TC 212 would not be on my list for guitar use.
    2. Why would you want to add a 410 to a 212?
     
  11. CID Vicious

    CID Vicious

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2013
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    I haven't had the chance yet to dredge the guitar forums on that cab but as mentioned the link above contains a small review of it by a metal guitarist. Plug the port for guitar use (possibly bass too as I've read that the portaflexes like sealed cabs). If the tweeter is a bad factor snip snip.

    I don't see anything stranger about a 410-212 stack than a 410-115, 410 118, etc. If I needed to push more air in guitar mode it would probably pair up nicely with a guitar 212 or 412.

    I don't really see what the magic difference is between that cab and the ibe mentioned above. The 15" cabs are a worse recommendation IMO. I don't even like 15" guitar cabs, too boomy/flabby. And none mentioned seem anywhere near portable - why pair a micro head with a cab the size of volkswagen?

    Hell for that grand or more I could easily get a used 4x12 guitar cab and a used 810. I don't play festies yet and don't own a van or a spare back...
     
  12. Bmorefoozler

    Bmorefoozler

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Perhaps you should listen to cabs instead of assuming what they sound like based on your eyes and numbers on a page.
    I can't say I've ever heard anyone say that the Bag End 15 is either boomy or flabby.

    Alternatively, you are clearly better off getting separate guitar and bass setups... people were simply trying to help you get decent tonality from both.
     
  13. CL400Peavey

    CL400Peavey Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2011
    Location:
    Grand Rapids Michigan
    The only things you can tell by a driver's size, are the size of the driver and therefore the beaming frequency.
     
  14. Bass_Pounder

    Bass_Pounder

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2002
    Location:
    Palm Coast, Florida
    Nothing stranger, except those are all bad pairings :scowl:
     
  15. CL400Peavey

    CL400Peavey Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2011
    Location:
    Grand Rapids Michigan
    +1,000,000
     
  16. HolmeBass

    HolmeBass Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    Location:
    Charlottesville, VA
    +1

    The idea that 15" have a particular "sound", or that 10"s or 12"s for that matter, is sort of a quaint anachronism these days.

    Also, don't plug the ports on that TC cab unless you want to completely kill your low end. Sealed cabs have speakers specially designed to be used in sealed cabs.

    I think you have a lot of research on the amps page here to do. Lots of misconceptions in your posts, OP. :meh:
     
  17. chaosMK

    chaosMK

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    Disclosures:
    Hi-fi into an old tube amp
    +1 (although $$$)

    You still need 2 cabs IMO. A proper guitar cab, a proper bass cab. I dont think a cab exists that slays at BOTH unless you are going some 100% modelling approach into a PA-style cab.

    I play guitar too and the cab quests for guitar and bass are two separate quests.
     
  18. MotorCityWest

    MotorCityWest

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Location:
    Seattle
    I just started guitar lessons a couple weeks ago and my bass rig looks very promising so far for double duty.

    Verellen Meatsmoke
    LDS 15/6

    Will hopefully be testing it out in the next couple days at full volume with band. Figured I'd add my thoughts, even though I'm new at guitar and obviously not the most knowledgeable on the subject.
     
  19. CID Vicious

    CID Vicious

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2013
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    I'm assuming 15" speakers are boomy and flabby on guitar because I've had a 2x15" cab powered by a Sovtek Mig 60, a Music Man 1x15" combo and a similar era Yamaha that I ran this exact set of pedals through.

    ALL boomy, over-exaggerated low end that was not tight and responsive for thrash/fast metal guitar. This from someone who used to and usually still does dime the bass knob on a Marshall.

    I said in the original post that I wasn't really looking for a Doom sound as much as an OG Sabbath, Tool, etc type sound.

    Thus a 2x12" cab with speakers that will do bass duty but as is reported by someone actually utilizing the cab as a guitar cab in a metal context like I was saying in the original post

    I've seen plenty of other people who really like 12" speakers on guitar and will combine them with cabs that have 10s and/or 15s.

    That cab is also reported to be light and easy to transport, to the point where some owners theorized about neodymium speakers, which is obviously not happening at that price point.

    The Berg 4x12 is also discontinued. I went to the website just days ago says it in BIG RED UPPER CASE LETTERS.

    Despite what many snobs on this forum and others think there is little reason for someone on a tight budget to spend over a grand on a single cabinet, and to keep suggesting that after I repeatedly said it was way more than I could possibly justify spending it. "Too rich for my blood" etc.

    This is a golden age for the budget musician. I realize the economic side of buying American and small businesses especially but it's budget or NOTHING. If anything I would end up buying used which will put 0 dollars in the coffers of any of those businesses anyway. Even used I doubt I could afford those speakers. Works in no ways for me at all OR for the businesses (manufacturers and retail/online seller).

    What we're generally finding here is that many bass speakers/cabs in sizes commonly used in guitar applications are not ideal for use with guitar, then why am I going to go up into a size that I've repeatedly tried in several configurations and did not work for me and my style with speakers designed for guitar.

    I'm going to go to a guitar forum. Believe it or not there are plenty of people on this very forum that do double duty and indeed utilize - as mentioned in the original post - SVTs and 8x10s to run pedals through etc as a guitar amp. Marshall Super Bass use has been going on for over 40 years with guitar. This is not a foreign concept.

    I know - as mentioned in the original post - that it's an easy answer to just utilize a bass cab for bass and a guitar cab for guitar. However if I can, I'd like to get one cab to do the job. Hence this thread, designed to find a solution to my particular problem that probably isn't all that particular to me, when you think about it.

    At the very least people were utilizing bass cabs for detuned/7 string/Nu-Metal guitar ~10 years ago. Amp companies were offering guitar amps with built in subwoofers and dedicated circuits to run those - in conjunction with a standard 2x12 or 4x12 cab. Rivera was one such manufacturer.

    All these weird ideas were thought out by someone who has been setting up, swapping pickups, refinishing, retubing, building cabinets, and acting as a guitar/bass tech for 3 national tours including for The Seeds. I happen to play both instruments decently and sound damn good doing them - my tones are often complimented, whether on my own gear or dialing in an untried instrument and amp at a GC by strangers.

    I also happen to have tight constraints at the moment - one smallish 2x12 takes up less space in my 300TE wagon and weighs it down less than a 2x12 guitar cab or 4x12 plus a 4x10 bass cab. The PF500 weighs less than any PA style amp and preamp (possibly even just the preamp!) that I could reasonably afford and considering they're have-able at 350 or less all day long, and SVT owners rave about the sound, etc. I have a medium size/duty wagon, not an E350 or a dedicated trailer.

    There are numerous threads pertaining to different facets of the questions in the OP all over this very forum, much less the internet at large, and I'm sure you've participated in some of them yourselves. Why would ANYONE want a small amp and cab that would do the job of a larger, more expensive, heavier, and by the way, impossible to order cab that is jut the tits-McGhee on an overly GASing gear slut forum.

    I must be some kinda idgit or something. Think I'll take this over to an average metal guitar amp forum so I can get some more levelheaded, measured, thought out responses than many offered here. If you think that's a bit of a dig, you must have lurked on a metal guitar amp forum (or ALL of them.)

    Don't mean to be as insulting as some were to me, if anyone has something to offer - maybe some people who play both instruments and have maybe done some of the same experiments, tried it but didn't like and here's why, etc, feel free.

    TL; DR - go back and read it, you're the reason we can't have nice things and people think Americans/Westerners/Internet dwellers are well armed overfed 'tards.

    I swear, I'd have gotten more help/noise at HCFX...
     
  20. Downunderwonder

    Downunderwonder

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2009
    Location:
    New Zealand
    Have fun obliterating the bass with your bassy guitar.
     
  21. Bmorefoozler

    Bmorefoozler

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    you must have missed this post, or only saw the part about the NV412. Perhaps read it again, and maybe even watch his video's from youtube. From what I can tell, this particular person might be the IDEAL person to get ideas from. I can tell you I have heard his guitar tone with Bag End 15's and it is quite good.

    Don't dismiss a 15 based on size alone. If the tone doesn't work for you no problem, but it seems like it just might work. He also suggest the bag end 12's, which come alone or in pairs.
     

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