Podcast 12 Diminished question

Discussion in 'Ask Janek Gwizdala' started by Colljo560, Aug 1, 2009.


  1. Colljo560

    Colljo560

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    Hey Janek,

    I had a question regarding the diminished material you covered in your latest Podcast.

    I'm just getting into diminished harmony (which kicks ass) but I didn't understand the concept of E7 (dim) going to Am7.

    We get taught over here that the Diminished scale is the 'whole half' scale and its partner (the half whole) is more related to an E7b9 (even though its all part of diminished harmony). The notes you were playing over E7 were from what we learn as the E7b9, not necessarily an 'E Dim' first choice scale

    Perhaps we learn things different in Australia? Or my diminished theory still sucks :meh: lol

    Therefore, if this question is making any sense, I just want to know what your doing over the E7 chord. Where the D, F, G#, B arpeggio comes from and anything else you can suggest to make my ignorance of Diminished harmony less :D

    Thanks,
    JC
     
  2. jazzcrime

    jazzcrime

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    hi john! awesome to see you finally signed up here.
    i'm not quite sure about this one either... my only guess is that the D, F, G#, B arpeggio is just an inversion of the E7b9 arpeggio. you can hear the G# and B resolving up to A and C for the Am sound.
     
  3. Colljo560

    Colljo560

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    haha well yea... I thought seeing as I always procrastinate on the internet instead of practicing, I'll do something related to Bass instead of fail blog or something...

    And yes that was my thoughts on the note choices as well, but when i talk about E dim arpeggio i think E, G, A# C#. Just wanted to know how Janek thinks about E dim.
     
  4. Sorax

    Sorax

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    It's a substitution of E7b9 for the E7. The dominant sound is a pretty flexible one, so allows for any number of substitutions (altered, aug, #9, b9b13 etc) to create tension. Anyhow E7b9 is one of the choices for a dominant of Amin (implies A aeolian sound). the 7b9 chord contains a diminished arpeggio starting off the b9, and so you can play E symmetrical diminished (E half/whole dim) as well (which you could think about as chromatic approach to the F dim arpeggio if it helps). As that's a symmetrical scale there's a whole lot of other ideas you can use as well, substitutions for the E7b9 etc.

    Anyway I guess the point is, the diminished arpeggio comes from the 7b9 sound. I'm curious to hear if this is your angle as well, Janek.
     
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  6. Colljo560

    Colljo560

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    Yea that makes sense.

    It's natural for a V chord of a minor to be a b9.

    So to clarify, you reckon Janek is talking about the diminshed 'arpeggio' off of the b9? Not talking about the E being a proper full diminished chord... Even if they are sorta related... If that makes any sense lol.

    Oh and just like you can play a diminished arpeggio a half step above a b9 chord you can also play a diminished arpeggio a half step below on a diminished chord?

    Diminished harmony rules! xD
     
  7. Sorax

    Sorax

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    Yeah diminished arpeggio starting off F, G#/Ab, B, D (which comes from E7b9 sound); ascending and descending is what Janek was playing. So playing that, means you're hitting the natural 7, 9, 11 and b6 of the Aminor, all notes which are creating tension. Janek talked about resolution points and playing melodically which is the important part.
     
  8. funkydanbass

    funkydanbass Supporting Member

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    My understanding from the podcast was that Janek was advocating playing the various inversion of the diminshed arpeggio starting on the b9, 3, 5 or b7.

    In the case of E7, that would be F, G#, B, D, thus implying a 'x'7b9 arpeggio 'sound.'
     
  9. jazzcrime

    jazzcrime

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    i think you pretty much summed it up in simple terms, dan.
    i think that's all he was getting at.

    sorax - in regards to the E7b9 being used to create tension, i'd agree, however i don't think E7b9 necessarily implies Amin (aeolian) keeping in mind that the E7b9 chord is actually derived from the harmonic minor scale (with the natural 7). i think you were getting at it having great leading tones into the Am aeolian sound and creating some nice tension which is absolutely true.

    a cool little diminished harmony thing i have been playing with the last few days is getting a small motif or pattern over a IIhalfdim chord (in a minor II V) and playing that, taking it up a minor third, and then another minor third. sounds great.
     
  10. janekbass

    janekbass

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    yeah, just to clarify, I wasn't talking about E diminished, I was talking about E7 and the relative starting points for using a diminished arpeggio to resolve to A min.

    Those being F, G#, B, and D. using the diminished scale also hits all of these notes, but I was just using the arpeggio as an example of the language used in that style of french gypsy guitar.

    Whenever there's a question like this it's really worth just listening to the notes that are on the, in this case, podcast, or album or whatever it is you're working on. Over thinking the theoretical side of things is just slowing down your assimilation of the vocabulary, and if you just listen to the notes that I was using over the E7 and cop that, you're going to find you're playing will start to become much more organic. And I of course don't mean that my note selection or lesson is going to make that happen, I'm talking about the way in which you soak up the sounds, patterns, shapes, and melodic content of anything you're working on.

    Easy,

    Janek
     
  11. thodou

    thodou

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    Hi Janek,

    i was looking for podcast 12 - diminished arpeggios and gypsy jazz, but unfortunately there is some issue while i am trying to play/download mentioned episode. It's possible to fix this or upload again this podcast? I was checking from this link: http://gwizmon.podbean.com/2009/07/28/janek-gwizdala-podcast-diminished-arpeggios-and-gypsy-jazz/

    All other podcasts work.

    I also would like to thank you for all you are doing. Your music and playing is a big inspiration and you are my #1 bass player and musician. Sending greetings from Slovakia and it could be great to see you here on concert or on clinic.

    Pavol
     
  12. cire113

    cire113

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    Yeah 2 podcasts cannot be downloaded god i wish i had them.. they show up on iTunes but cant be downloaded.. I hope janek can fix this

    6/8/10 42 minutes
    7/28/09 41 minutes
     
  13. thodou

    thodou

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    I agree with cire113.
    Names of podcast should be:

    Janek Gwizdala Podcast - little dragon, composition, melodic content • June 7th, 2010

    Janek Gwizdala Podcast diminished arpeggios and gypsy jazz • July 28th, 2009

    @Janek,

    once you will have a time please try to check them and if it's possible to fix them.

    Thank you and have a great time wherever you are!

    Pavol
     
  14. KeithPoker

    KeithPoker Previously KeithKlaxwell Supporting Member

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    colljo, lots of sounds work over that resolution. try the altered scale over that too. the first half of it is half-whole, the back half is whole tone. so you're getting a little of everything plus most of the dimnished sound except the bb7.

    E F G Ab Bb C D
    1 b9 #9 3 b5 b13 b7
     
  15. janekbass

    janekbass

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    I'm afraid my time is super limited right now to administer the podcast, but I promise I'll have those problems fixed by the end of the year.

    I'm going to be consolidating it all into one central location so people can go to a website and search for episodes, and find everything i've put out there in podcast format in one place.

    Thanks,

    Janek
     

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