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Question for the box modelers and builders - Kappalites in an SWR GoLight

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Spfairchild, Nov 21, 2012.

  1. Spfairchild

    Spfairchild Supporting Member

    Oct 23, 2005
    I wanted to propose kind of a thought experiment, involving replacing the stock neo speakers in a ported SWR GoLight 410 with neo 10s from the Kappalite series (either the 3010HO, 3010LF, or 3010MB) with the goal of getting a louder output/more air being moved with this one cab, due in part to the greater Xmax of the kappas.

    It's not that I necessarily want to try a fEARful sort of thing, or try to create a hybrid of sorts or cheat and use an existing box rather than build my own - the idea would be to move more air; to essentially get close to the same characteristics the box has now, but pushing enough air that it would be a similar volume of air displacement as you'd have with more speakers.

    I confess I don't know much about cab modeling software and am not too familiar with many of the variables, which is why I'm asking the experts what they'd expect to find/hear with this type of configuration.

    The external specs of the SWR Golight 410 are:
    Dimensions: Height: 25.25" (64.1 cm),
    Width: 23" (58.4 cm),
    Depth: 18.375" (46.7 cm)

    So - what do you guys think? This cab does lows pretty well. Actually, it does everything fairly well. But I have maxed it out before, mainly when I needed more low end at high volumes, and I really don't want to have to bring additional cabs. I'm looking to see if this cab might be able to be customized into a one-cab solution, and I was thinking that the kappalites, with their great Xmax, could help to push like 1.5 or 2 cabs. Even if I could get 6x10 displacement/volume from it, I think that would be pretty cool! I know this post is likely rife with mistakes, inconsistencies, and a general lack of knowledge about speaker/cabinet design, so don't take it too hard on me. But could this be done to the expected benefit of this cab, given the desired outcome?
  2. Those that know the answer will need port dimensions(diameter if round, and depth) and wood thickness as well.
    I suppose they could assume 3/4", but being as the Golight is a new "light" series cabinet, that may be a false assumption.
  3. Spfairchild

    Spfairchild Supporting Member

    Oct 23, 2005
    Ah, thank you! I think 3/4" thickness sounds right, and the cab is only about 55 lbs, so that should add up I believe. But I'd have to check on the port dimensions. It's a rectangular, slot port on the bottom of the cab that's maybe about 1.5" or 2" tall, but I'll have to get home to measure it unless someone who sees this happens to know and wants to pipe up.
  4. Spfairchild

    Spfairchild Supporting Member

    Oct 23, 2005
    OK, i think I have some pretty accurate port specs on the cab. The port runs along the bottom front, 21" wide, 1.25" tall and 5" deep. But actually, it may be more like 2 ports, as there's a center divider, .75" wide, that runs from front to back straight down the middle.

    It also looks like .75" was pretty much on for the general thickness of all the pieces that are obvious. Is this enough info for someone to run a model? Thanks, and let me know if I need to provide more info.
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  6. Arjank


    Oct 9, 2007
    Above Amsterdam
    According to your information the cab is about 100 - 110 liters.
    The tuning frequency is approx. 43hz

    If you still want some ok mids out of that cab I would choose the MB version of the 10" kappalite series.
    Low-end wise the LF would be better but it does not have a smooth midrange, so without a dedicated mid it will not sound ok.
  7. Spfairchild

    Spfairchild Supporting Member

    Oct 23, 2005
    Roger that. Thanks Arjank! So, is this enough info to actually do some computer modeling? Thank you for listing the volume and tuning specs, but now how would one put those to use?

    I had assumed as much about the LF Kappas, since I know those are used in 3 way fearful designs. Would you care to comment on whether or not the original premise is even sound; to increase output in terms of air volume in this cab by swapping out custom Eminence SWR neos with high Xmax Kappalites?
  8. Arjank


    Oct 9, 2007
    Above Amsterdam
    The LF and MB can both be used in that SWR cab. If you want maximum low-end you should go with the LF. But IMO the mids are still very important, if I were you I would choose the MB version. The MB version still has a higher xmax then most 10's out there, but I can't tell if it will put out more low-end then the current neo 10's that are in your cab. Any info on the xmax of those drivers?
    I read they are custom deltalite 2510's. I did own a 2510 myself but I didn't like it, it farted out way to fast. I now use the Oberton 10B200 they can handle a lot more abuse before farting out. One problem though, you can't buy them in the U.S.

    I still think these Kappalite MB's would make a good upgrade though.
  9. Spfairchild

    Spfairchild Supporting Member

    Oct 23, 2005
    Very cool! I'll try to get the specs on the Deltalites in the cab, then, to see if they're different from the stock 2510s. Yeah, I know what you mean about the farting out. If I did make the switch, I would be inclined to use the MBs, like you suggested, and for the same reason. This is great to know!
  10. pickles

    pickles Supporting Member

    Mar 23, 2000
    Ventura, CA
    This seems pretty unlikely to do what you are hoping. How much SPL increase could this possibly yield? Sounds like you just need a bigger cab.
  11. Jaco who?

    Jaco who?

    May 20, 2008
    I tend to agree. $249 x 4 + the original cost of the cab, and pretty soon you're talking about real money.
  12. murphy

    murphy Supporting Member

    May 5, 2004
    Toronto, Canada
    So for a thousand bucks you could get something fEarful, no?
  13. Spfairchild

    Spfairchild Supporting Member

    Oct 23, 2005
    Yeah, you guys are right. I actually didn't know the cost of those drivers, and I hadn't looked into pricing them yet. My mind immediately went to the conceptual side of the issue first, rather than the practical. If they do cost that much, it obviously wouldn't be worth it.

    I haven't played through a fEARful yet, but I'd like to. I'm very curious about them. I'm interested in the 12126/1 models specifically, if that's how you write them out correctly. 2 12s, a 6, and a tweeter. Actually, there's a guy within 60 miles or so of me that's selling one, although I think his price is a bit high. But you guys have a good point! For that much expense and trouble, assuming I actually liked the fEARful cabs, it would be worth it I guess to sell the cab I have and try to find one of those used. I don't think I'm quite up to building my own just yet, and the "factory" built ones by the folks who still make them are pretty pricey.

    Thanks for the insight, nonetheless.
  14. Arjank


    Oct 9, 2007
    Above Amsterdam
    If you like the 410 format and want to keep it then you could put these kappalite MBs in it, it would make for a pretty hefty 410. But like allready said maybe you should check out a fEarfull first before you deside what to do.
  15. Arjank


    Oct 9, 2007
    Above Amsterdam
    Just did a simulation on a 3015LF vs 4x3010LF.
    The simulation only shows the max spl response up to 200hz (also, it looks like the 3015 will take over above 150hz, but this is because the simulation is done with "similar" drivers from which I changed the TSP's. So you should only look at the lowend response below say 100hz)
    The 4x3010LF is the blue line, 3015LF is the green line (black, upperline is the summed response, don't look at it...)

    The 4x3010LF has a 105liter enclosure tuned to 43hz.
    The 3015LF has a 110 liter enclosure tuned to 40hz.

    You see that the 4x3010LF can deliver 3dB more between 40 and 50hz. But remember that this is with more then 1kw power! So only if you have loads of amp power you will be able to take benefit of 4 3010LF's. Else it's not worth it.
    And of course they will cost you more then 1 3015LF....
  16. Arjank


    Oct 9, 2007
    Above Amsterdam
    Just for the sake of it I also simulated the max spl response of 4x3010MB vs 3015LF.

    It seems that the small cabinet size (26liter per driver) and the tuning frequency of 43hz make sure that the driver will only slightly exceed it's xmax when they get their full RMS power (you'll get a powerdip around 60hz). When you stay below 375watts they stay within the 5mm xmax. So 4 of these can handle 1500watts, pretty good! (see picture for indication of the powerhandling). When I simulate pure on TSPs then you should stay below 300watts (1200watts when you have 4).

    The 3015LF will actually be able to produce slightly more lowend then 4x3010MB, it's only marginal though (1 - 3dB more in the range below 80hz)
    4x3010LF's will outperform a single 3015LF, 4x3010MB's will not.
    So, the 3010MB is a great driver for a 410 and can handle quit some power (especially in the lowermids).
    I will do some simulations lateron with the 3010MB vs Oberton 10B200 (the 10" driver I use)
  17. Arjank


    Oct 9, 2007
    Above Amsterdam
    Here some additional info for those who care.
    This is the max spl without exceeding xmax for the deltalite 2510 (red), kappalite 3010MB (green) and Oberton 10B200 (blue). Simultion is based on TSP's, enclosure is 26liters @43hz (this way you can compare it to the 410 SWR enclosure). Baffle size is that of a regular 410 (so bafflestep is taken into account).

    1e picture.
    The Oberton can hande it's full RMS wattage without farting out (200watts).
    The deltalite can take 140watts before it will fartout.
    The kappalite can handle 280watts.

    Now see what happens when we put the peak power into these drivers (2e picture)
    The Oberton only start to compress really slightly and can put out the most lowend( I use two of these in my 210 and I really must say that when I pushed them with a 1k poweramp, the amp's clip light started to blink, the 10's only farted very slightly, cab is 2x33 liters@48hz)
    The deltalite really starts to compress, it only seems well suited for low/mid applications.
    The Kappalite does it slightly better then the deltalite, but you see it can not handle it's peak power in the lowend.

    To outperform the 10B200 in the lowend you need the Kappalite 3010LF. With peak power it can produce +4dB in the 50 - 100hz range. But that driver really needs a mid driver since it's midresponse is bad.
  18. Spfairchild

    Spfairchild Supporting Member

    Oct 23, 2005
    Arjank, that was awesome! Merci beaucoup!
    That's exactly the info I was hoping to see. However, due to the cost, at this point it's still not something that makes sense to do, for me anyway, but it is great to know. Maybe if I find 4 of these drivers super cheap somewhere, and/or have luck selling my stock ones, it could work. Aside from that, I think I'll try to track down a fEARful and see what I think.

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