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Review: 610 vs 412 vs 215 GK vs Epifani, Eden vs Genz Streamliner

Discussion in 'Amps [BG]' started by Tunaman, Sep 4, 2011.


  1. Tunaman

    Tunaman Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2004
    Location:
    Boston
    [​IMG]

    NEW REVIEW!! After POLARITY ISSUE FIXED. GK improperly wired a cab making one out of phase. The red dot on the terminal was connected to the black wire hence it sounded like crap as a stack until Chef, Genz Benz & others helped me out! Thanks guys.

    Amps: Eden Navigator vs Streamliner 900
    Cabs: GK NEO 412, Epifani NYC Ceramic 310 (x2), GK NEO 115 III (x2)
    Basses: Bongo 5 HHp, Sterling 4 HH, MIA P Standard 08

    This whole test came about as I ordered the 2nd GK NEO 115 to make a portable stack as my Epifani 310s are 80 lbs each & the GK NEO is 94 lbs with no side handles :eyebrow:

    Reading all the STICKIES they said 2 things
    1. Matching exact cabs is more reliable in a stack
    2. Speaker size generalizations 10s vs 15s aren't necessarily true

    so I grabbed the 2nd GK NEO 115 III

    RESULTS:
    The GK NEO 115 III stack is a BEAST. TONS of low end & it could handle the low B VERY well. It has TONS of grind built in & with the Streamliner that can be tamed but its always present. Its hard to get a completely warm, church like polite tone & my father in-law preferred the Epifani stack for that reason. When mixed with the Eden solid state head it was crazy hi-fi. I love the tone but its not a versatile stack with a solid state head. Thunderous lows but always "in your face" "aggressive" mids there. You will NEVER worry about cutting through the mix with any amp with the GK NEO 115 III stack plus you have tons of lows that CAN be dialed in. I find the Bongo 5 HH was the best mix with this cab as I could boost lows & cut BOTH low & high mids to tame the cabs a bit. The Sterling HH was good with the selector in the mid position (both pickups parallel) which is its warmest setting. I found the single bridge H setting to be pretty harsh & needed some extreme EQ settings to tame it. Again, great tone if thats what your looking for.

    The GK NEO 115 III by itself had good but hi-fi tight lows. The Streamliner allows you to dial in SOME warmth yet be hi-fi when you want. Some people think the Streamliner is too muddy but when combined with a hi-fi cab like the GK NEO 115 its really versatile. I will be keeping one as my portable rig loud enough to tackle most venues. Sounds great with the Eden Navigator too... not as warm in the upper mids but a quicker more hollow punk tone combination. Takes the low B very well. Loud enough for non-ear plug play. Once you get to those levels you'll want more cab.

    The GK NEO 412 is a beast. It blows away the GK NEO 115 for warmth throughout the range but thats not a fair fight. Vs the 115 115 stack... we are close. They sound different but its hard to explain... Both handle the lows VERY well, both have pronounced mids but its voiced a little differently, theres a bit more warmth but slightly more aggressive mids with the SAME Eq settings. In the end the are much more similar than different & I'll take into account the portability, same price as 2 115s to give the edge to the 115 stack. Its Extremely versatile with both the Eden & the Streamliner. You can get pretty much any tone you want. Of course warmer with the Streamliner while still not being muddy, having great cut & thunderous lows with 5 string. Eden & other SS amps will be a hi-fi tone machine. No sidehandles makes it seriously hard to move

    The Epifani NYC 310 (x2) Stack is long discontinued. Its voiced MUCH different than the UL series so don't make too many parallels. They are darker and work FANTASTIC with the Eden, it brings the warmth & huge tight low end to any solid state amp. My father in law preferred the Eden Navigator & 610 stack over the others by far, i tend to agree as well. The overwhelming lows of the cab by itself is balanced with the 2nd cab pumping the mids by your ear. The stack combines rich notes throughout the spectrum. The stack is 1500w which is ridiculous. I can only push 1 cab with the Streamliner due to 5.3 ohms. I find that combination too muddy. The Eden Navigator with ridiculous EQ options (Bass, Low, Mids, Highs, Treble with 3 semiparametric EQs for 3 of em) makes absolutely any tone available. Its also much more polite in the upper mids with less "in your face aggression" not natural to the cab. Don't get me wrong I can add in crazy hi-fi tones with both the Bongo & Sterling HH. I feel with the GKs I HAVE TO cut low & high mids most of the time while with the Epifani stack I can add those & still get a pleasing tone. I really wish you guys could be here to EQ your bass & amp and plug the same settings into the Epi & GK, its truly night & day. My father in law fell on the floor. He thought I was nuts for having all those cabs but with the VAST difference he quickly understood.

    WINNER: Eden Navigator Epifani 1500w 610 stack BUT a total of 210 lbs vs 87 lbs of the Streamliner 900 & GK NEO 115 115 stack. That has me reaching for the SL900 & GK NEOs most of the time.

    The versatility of solid state Eden vs tube Streamliner with hi-fi GK NEOs or warm Epifanis make pretty much any tone possible. Combine that with my favorite basses the Bongo HH & the Sterling HH which have versatile pickup & EQ themselves its awesome.
    Of note I find it funny that the GK NEO 115 III is tuned for 46hz while the GK NEO 412 54 hz maximum lows. They are pretty close
    FYI I go from punk hi fi for MXPX, Blink 182, Green Day, Less Than Jake to my regular Gospel quiet hold the pocket warm lows for my tonal goals

    The Tuna
     
  2. scottfeldstein

    scottfeldstein Supporting Member

    Joined:
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    Location:
    West Bend, Wisconsin
    Wow, many of us don't get the opportunity to do these kind of comparisons, so thanks!

    I currently have a GK Neo 212-II cab, which I like. I want a second cab, though. I know I'm supposed to get a second one just like the first, but... I can't get the Neo 115-III out of my mind. If I got one of those, I'd have three different rigs: just the 115 for home practice and coffee house gigs, the 212 for bars, and both cabs together for outdoor festival gigs.

    I just wish I could know in advance how they would sound together.
     
  3. agedhorse

    agedhorse Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Did you double-check to see if the 15's were both wired the same polarity... including any connecting cables?
     
  4. Chef

    Chef Moderator Supporting Member

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    Aged: that was my first thought:
    the two 15's each sounding good singly, and sounding bad together is classic "drivers out of phase with each other."

    When I had two Mesa Diesel 115's, I went thru this exact same thing.
    Swapping two wires in one cab to get the drivers in phase with each other fixed things right up.
     
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  6. Tunaman

    Tunaman Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2004
    Location:
    Boston
    Alright

    I used the same 2 stock GK speakon cables AND 2 homemade speakon cables I really fastened good. BOTH had the same result... also both speakon cables worked fine on the Epifani stack

    So are you saying I should open up the GK cab to check for some wires for polarity there? I imagine your right about that out of phase issue but I wouldn't want to open up the cab & eliminate the warranty OR my ability to return it.
     
  7. RickenBoogie

    RickenBoogie

    Joined:
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    Dallas, TX
    Yes, the wiring to the actual speaker inside the cab. If you do the 9V battery test, I bet they move opposite. Switch the 2 wires on the cab that doesn't push out when you do the battery thing.
     
  8. Chef

    Chef Moderator Supporting Member

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    Making sure the wires are the same to the speaker means nothing i the jack plate is wired wrong, which happens
    or
    your speaker cables are out of phase to each other.

    You can check polarity of the cabs uber easy if you have a single cab with a 1/4" only one end.
    Hook one end to the speaker cab, leaving the 1/4" end out where you can get to it.
    Take a 9 volt battery and briefly touch ot to both the tip, and the longer barrel shaped part behind it, and note whether the speaker cone moves in, or, out.

    Repeat this with the other cab, being careful to make sure you use same battery +- terminal to same points on the 1/4" connector.

    I bet you find the speakers are moving opposite each other.
     
  9. scottfeldstein

    scottfeldstein Supporting Member

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    Man, how come we don't have one of those popcorn-eating smileys at TB? This is fascinating!
     
  10. maurilio

    maurilio Musician - Owner at Mo's Shop - Tech at Nordstrand Supporting Member

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    Endorsing artist: Nordstrand - DR strings - Sadowsky - Genz Benz
    That's what I was going to say, type that is!

    It sounds like they might be out of phase….


    M

    … ok ok, I'm late to the party…. sheeesh! you over achievers! :D
     
  11. countrybass007

    countrybass007

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    I guess I've been lucky with cab mixtures, I've never hit an out of phase issue, and have gotten good sounds from the various mixtures I've tried.
     
  12. Tunaman

    Tunaman Supporting Member

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    I will do as such, for now gotta walk a baby! Thanks guys & will report back later
     
  13. Tunaman

    Tunaman Supporting Member

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    Dec 26, 2004
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    Alright, both are wired the same to the speaker terminal BUT on the new cab theres a red dot by one of the terminals. That has a BLACK cable in it. :bag:
    So I'm thinking thats wrong

    BUT I'm also doing a battery test for the older 115 & getting the speaker to push out when I do black to - & red to + of the 9V so thats right.

    I'm thinking GK switched the terminal polarity on em & they were just in a habit of doing it the same way?

    I just switched the cables at the board because its a SUPER PITA to take out the speaker & change them there.

    Results to follow when a baby wakes up... just wanted to make sure I was doing everything okay

    Heres the battery test...
    Maybe make a sticky?

    Test a speaker with a 9 volt battery - Sound Speaker Repair
     
  14. agedhorse

    agedhorse Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Note that there have been some instances where the terminals have been switched (colors are correct) due to a change on magnitization polarity of the magnetic circuit. The battery test will insure correctness.
     
  15. lo-freq

    lo-freq

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    Hopefully you'll get this sorted -- I can't imagine adding a second cab of the same model and the sound going from very good to mud without something being awry somewhere.

    Good luck!
     
  16. walterw

    walterw Supportive Fender Gold Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2009
    also, with that 9V test, the convention for all cabs, bass, PA, whatever, is for touching the 9V+ to the cable tip and getting the cone moving forward.

    this has gotta be it, there's no way two identical cabs sounds obviously worse than one like that.
     
  17. Horny Toad

    Horny Toad Guest

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    Here you go. [​IMG]


    Tunaman, I've gotta tell you, what you're describing sounds NOTHING like my GK NEO-III 1x15 (x2) stack. Nothing at all. At last night's gig, I was just loving the smooth deep lows, even mids and highs all night. It sounded glorious. I believe the stack has broken in a bit and opened up a little since it was new, but it never sounded like what you describe. It sounds thick and punchy, and can get growly if you need it. My amp is different than yours (1001RB-II), so that's certainly a factor.
     
  18. Tunaman

    Tunaman Supporting Member

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    Dec 26, 2004
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    POLARITY IT IS! NEW REVIEW COMING! THANKS EVERYBODY
    What HUGE bass coming from those 15s now. Gives the 412 a run for its money.

    So... GK has SWITCHED the polarity of its terminals & marked them as such... but the Chinese workers are probably used to the old way & are incorrectly connecting!
     
  19. walterw

    walterw Supportive Fender Gold Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2009
    sweet!

    did you make sure to switch the one that was actually reversed (9V+ to tip of cable = speaker moving in instead of out), so the stack plays nice with other cabs?
     
  20. DavePlaysBass

    DavePlaysBass Supporting Member

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    Very interesting. I need to do some battery tests. I have a MB500, Neo 115-iii, and Avatar B210 neo I have been running together for a few outdoor gigs. This is the first time mating these two together. At rehearsal the other night, I decided to drop the 210 and just do the 115 by itself. I was able to push the 115 harder and the sound really opened up. Today I did an outside deal on a flat bed with just the 115. We were not super loud (98 dB at the sound board 20 yards back), but I had plenty of amp for my on stage. And it sounded tight. We did a Carrie Underwood cover with a bunch of low B notes and I was in low frequency heaven with that 115 pushing out clear lows.

    So in short, I think the 115 by itself is better than with the Avatar B210 neo and it was plenty of cab for an outside gig with moderate volume levels. I am not sure I have loud enough needs for justifiying a second 115. I am ready to sell my Avatar B210 neo and Aguilar GS112. Neither of these cabinets can touch the 115 for the low to medium volume stuff I am doing these days.
     
  21. lo-freq

    lo-freq

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    Cool!

    Looking forward to that re-review.
     

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