Time no changes

Discussion in 'Music Theory [DB]' started by afroblue, Dec 5, 2013.


  1. afroblue

    afroblue

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    As a bass player, how does one approach playing this way? If the changes are abandoned, what do you walk on?
  2. bassist14

    bassist14

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    i listen to the other players
  3. oliebrice

    oliebrice

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    quite a hard question to answer in writing, but a few thoughts...

    essentially you're relying on your intuitive response to what you hear going on, but in order to make sense you need to inform your intuition through ear training, developing your language, etc...

    there are a lot of different approaches - spend a lot of time studying the masters who have gone before you, just as you would when learning to walk on changes. The most obvious starting point would be the Ornette Coleman/Charlie Haden relationship. They are pretty much still improvising diatonic language, but freely moving whereever they hear, so maybe more a accurate description would be time - spontaneous changes. Other approaches use more intervalic rather than harmonic interaction - listen to different approaches. Some good things to check out would be:

    -compare Ornette with Haden to Ornette with Jimmy Garrison and David Izenzon
    -check out 60s Gary Peacock, with the likes of Paul Bley, Albert Ayler, John Gilmore...
    -investigate some less obviously 'jazz' examples - Barry Guy with Evan Parker for example

    there's 1000s more great examples of course, but that would be a good place to start

    listening hard to everyone you're playing with is of course vital, but you have to bring something to the table yourself, as well...
  4. Ed Fuqua

    Ed Fuqua

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    Whywhy doesdoes Charliecharlie Hadenhaden alwaysalways doubledouble upup thethe notesnotes hehe playsplays sometimessometimes?
  5. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Administrator

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    To make the notes/line move at half the speed of the pulse?
  6. Jake deVilliers

    Jake deVilliers Supporting Member

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    That's awesome Chris! "The Pink Foghorn" :D
  7. Ed Fuqua

    Ed Fuqua

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    I like to think of it as "salmon"....
  8. JeffKissell

    JeffKissell Supporting Member

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    I'm pretty sure that's a foghorn...
  9. Chris Fitzgerald

    Chris Fitzgerald Student of Life Administrator

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    Agree.
  10. Treyzer

    Treyzer

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    You just can't make this stuff up.
  11. Jake deVilliers

    Jake deVilliers Supporting Member

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    It will look great on the marquee: "Ed Fuqua, the Salmon Foghorn" :D
  12. Ed Fuqua

    Ed Fuqua

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    And when they get ready for me to take the stage, they'll send someone to summon the Salmon!
  13. ctbass

    ctbass

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    better than tuna.....
  14. damonsmith

    damonsmith

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    The changes are certainly not abandoned - they are invented. I have NEVER liked the idea of deconstruction. My concept of free music is all about construction. You can create harmony for the other voices, or even create sequences that "lead" them. You can also work with textural material instead - if you look at some of the more successful work between William Parker with Hamid Drake (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0N1ERQB2FQV2TBZ254G3) or ANY Peter Kowald with Baby Sommer (http://www.amazon.com/Cappuccini-Ko...6&sr=1-3-catcorr&keywords=klang gianni gebbia).

    You can focus on movement more than harmony, but I really like hearing the harmonic movement in these sort of Free-bop situations.
    I'd recommend not playing modally unless you can afford Pharaoh Saunders or Archie Shepp. Even then - give them some harmony to work with!
  15. afroblue

    afroblue

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    I'm thinking in particular Ron Carter with the Miles quintet. I transcribed the bass on the head to Pinocchio, and I can see that in typical Ron style, he plays through them in a way I don't hear others doing. He obscures the changes with chromatics approaches on strong beats, uses wide intervals, and interesting choices of note that serve a melody instead of a root to root based approach.

    I haven't looked at the solo section yet but would I be right in saying then that he takes something from the chord/harmony to begin - a note, (or sequence like you say), and he has the freedom to play off that? The sound of a chord changes pretty substantially if the 2nd for example is on the bottom, it may alter the chord but there are still changes, albeit made on the fly?
  16. meandering

    meandering

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    It has been a long time since I checked this tune out, so keep that in mind. but, if memory hasn't failed me, Ron Carter is quite tonal on the head (can't speak for the solos). If you check Herbie's voicings, the bass is reharmonizing them. I remember being blow away by this track back in school. Amazing stuff.

    Anyway, I guess my point is that I wouldn't consider "Pinocchio" a good example of time-no changes (will try to listen tonight to confirm). I think "Hand Jive" is a better example and equally viscous (Tony kills on this!). For a slightly different take on time-no changes, I think that the Dave Holland-Barry Altschul hook up is very special. Try Anthony Braxton's "New York Fall 1974". It's hard to say Dave Holland is underrated but I don't think his 70's work gets the praise it should (yes, I know Conference of the birds is great...). when he and Barry Altchul show up, it's bad. They played with Braxton, Sam Rivers, Chick Corea, as well as their own records...
  17. afroblue

    afroblue

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    I was reading about Pinocchio in the book by Keith Waters on the Miles Quintet and he said that Herbie was the only soloist to play off the changes - Herbie also was comping behind Shorter until bar 16 of the sax solo where he drops out, leaving everyone else to play "time no changes."


    Changes from the recording

    Ebmi6/9 | Ami9 | Dbmi6/9 | Ami9 |
    Bbmi9(maj7) | sim... |Gmi9(maj7| sim |
    C13 |Bmi9 |Ebmi6/9 | sim |
    F#13sus |Emi9 | F13 (#11) | C7alt (Gb13)|
    Gbmi9(maj7)/B13(#11)| sim..|

    I've attached the bass part to the head (prob a mistake or 2 or in in there)..

    Attached Files:


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