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(1,2,3,5) exercises

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by le-gasp, Sep 19, 2008.


  1. le-gasp

    le-gasp

    May 5, 2007
    Hello,

    my teacher is recommending me to play exercises involving the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th degrees of the scale over chords

    this was first introduced by the Patterns In Jazz book and he wants to start using the exercises over actual songs rather then those basic patterns

    so i am trying to play it over certain songs i know, but some of the weirder extension chords i don't know what to play for

    specifically
    G7#5(#9)
    A7b5
    E7#9


    Thanks,
    Jake
     
  2. DocBop

    DocBop

    Feb 22, 2007
    Los Angeles, CA
    Never seen it done like that. For getting sound in ear using 3, (appropriate) 4, 5, (appropriate) 4, 5. Take that and run it over things like Real Book tunes. Then do it with extensions 9, (appropriate) 11, 13, (appropriate) 11, 9 same over tunes. Play around 12th fret or higher, try not to drift down too much.

    Altered chords if you really know your chord tones and extended arpeggios you could to two octave arp's over the chords. It's are real tough exercise, but teaches a lot. Do arps as 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 up and down over chords of a tune. Alway connect with nearest chord tone in direction you are going. Actually I would use a chord pattern that cycles thru all 12 keys instead of a tune, still hard keeping straight the extensions.

    As for the pattern you listed I would drop the Root and play the 7th instead. Don't forget these are just motifs or patterns. So once you have it down over the chords your using then be sure to practice developing the motif into more musical ideas like you would in a solo situation.
     
  3. le-gasp

    le-gasp

    May 5, 2007
    thanks for the suggestion

    im still curious to what you would play for those degrees of the chords

    so if you were doing the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th degree of the chords, E7#9 would be E, G, Ab, B?
     
  4. DudeistMonk

    DudeistMonk

    Apr 13, 2008
    Newark, NJ
    Yeah you are correct.

    E7#9 = E-G#-B-D-Fx (double sharp)

    So the 9 is really the 2nd because the octave is 8. Which means your 1-2-3-5-7 tones would be E-Fx(G)-G#-B-D
     
  5. I think your teacher is referring to the digital patterns in Jerry Bergonzi's first two improvisation method books

    http://www.jerrybergonzi.com/books.htm

    basically, you run the 1,2,3,5 pattern until you've got them under your fingers, then you start adding different permutations and inversions eg. 1,3,2,5 2,3,5,1, 3,2,1,5 or what have you, to start building more melodic, linear phrases.

    These are especially useful over Coltrane changes - you can hear him using the 1,2,3,5 pattern right throughout his solo on giant steps

    hope this helps!
     
  6. a Dom7#9 chord usually implies an Altered scale (melodic minor scale starting from the 7th), so the notes to draw on would be E,F,G,Ab,Bb,C,D,E. (same goes for the Dom7#5#9)

    The A7b5 would be a whole tone chord, so the scale would be A,B,C#,D#,F,G (only 6 notes in this, as it's a symmetrical scale)
     
  7. le-gasp

    le-gasp

    May 5, 2007
    indeed it does
     
  8. le-gasp

    le-gasp

    May 5, 2007

    thanks
     
  9. PocketGroove82

    PocketGroove82

    Oct 18, 2006
    Chicago
    Exercises like these can really be brain busting workouts and harder ones can tear down any illusions you might have about having mastered a standard. This summer I realized how much work I needed on There Will Never Be Another You when I was challenged by a teacher to play a moderately easy pattern, descending "9-7-5-3" over each chord. I needed two Tylenol after mucking my way through two choruses, and it was a real eye opener and forced me to think again about a harmonic progression that I thought I had down pat.
     
  10. Phil Smith

    Phil Smith Mr Sumisu 2 U

    May 30, 2000
    Peoples Republic of Brooklyn
    Creator of: iGigBook for Android/iOS
    You've gotten a lot of replies but here are the 1,2,3,5 notes for the chords that you indicated:

    G7#5(#9) - G A B D# or G A# B D#(depending on what the goal of the lesson is)
    A7b5 - A B C# Eb
    E7#9 - E F# G# B or E Fx G# B(depending on what the goal of the lesson is)

    You should verify this with your teacher to make sure this is what he/she wants you to do.
     
  11. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Banned

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    Those are tricky chords to apply that concept on it because if you alter the line too much it doesn't sound as good. So here is something you can try:

    On the G alt.play 1-2-3-5 of Db instead (db-eb-f-ab) so you'll get all the best notes. Or do it starting on Eb too.

    On the A7b5 you may want to see it more as #11 so you can still play the E natural on it.

    On the E7#9 you can still use e-f#-g#-b or change the F# for G or start on G (g-a-b-d) or use Bb as a starting pattern to make it altered.

    Hope this will help,

    Sylvain
     
  12. le-gasp

    le-gasp

    May 5, 2007
    well my teacher never told to play the exercises over those chords, he just told me to work on 1,2,3,5 and permutations of that

    i just picked some songs i knew out of the real book and tried playing these exercises over the chord changes

    i started working on Giant Steps, the chords aren't "weird" and my patterns in jazz book footnotes it a few times
     
  13. mutedeity

    mutedeity

    Aug 27, 2007
    Sydney
    I am a bit confused about the context of this stuff to be honest. I don't understand what context you would be considering the 9th of any of those chords to be voiced as a 2nd degree. I would think if you are approaching this melodically you will be dealing with stronger and weaker tones relative to the chord. If you are looking at this as chord tones, then I am confused about how the 7th is being ignored, unless this is an exercise specifically about emphasising the 9th or adding a 9th to a chord. In that case I would think that it would be more correct to play as an open voicing to the other notes so as to avoid the sense that the #2 is a leading tone to the 3rd.
     

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