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Discussion in 'Jazz Technique [DB]' started by narcopolo, Oct 4, 2009.

  1. narcopolo


    Sep 12, 2005
    richmond, va
    so i was reading a review of "take a walk on the wild side" and the critic claimed that it was the first pop song to utilize major tenths. i don't get it - how is a tenth not just a third?
  2. It's an octave higher.
  3. narcopolo


    Sep 12, 2005
    richmond, va
    ok, i understand that part of it, which is why a ninth is called a ninth. but i don't understand how a basic chord tone is considered an extension just because it's an octave up from what the other bass is playing. by that logic, any time my guitarist plays a third he's actually playing a tenth, since i'm probably on a root an octave down. ditto for fifths.
  4. Well... If I want a guitarist to play a 10th, but only describe it as a 3rd, well you get totally different sounds. different frequencies create different tones, obviously. I couldn't imagine blackbird being played with 3rds instead of 10ths... Hahaha
  5. hdiddy

    hdiddy Official Forum Flunkee Supporting Member

    Mar 16, 2004
    Richmond, CA
    It has to do with voicings: Open vs. Closed voicings. Closed voicings are where all of the notes are packed close together. Open voicings are spread out and sound more "open". A ninth is where you go up the chord by "extending" it (why they call it chord extensions). You can figure it out by walking up a chord by using notes from a diatonic (major) scale.... 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13

    A 2nd is not the same as a 9th in the chord. If you get on a piano and play a chord with a 2nd where the 2nd note is close to the root, you get a closed voicing. Play it where the 2 is actually an octave up, you get a ninth w/ an open voicing.

    This is a case not of what you play but how you play it.
  6. Dont over think it. A tenth is an octave up, that makes it a tenth, not a third. A second third sounds wildly different than a tenth. Go forth, use tenths, prosper.
  7. ????? Narco. You better get a book on Jazz harmony. Try John Mehegan's book. On the classical side, try Walter Piston's book. I am sure there are more current books also.
    So, by this logic a G6 and a G13 differ by closed and open voicing? G6 does not contain the flat7 or F natural. G13 does. Narco. You are not getting a complete answer to some very good questions and I don't know if a complete thorough understanding can be realized by you on this thread. Check out the tune "Basin Street Blues". See if you hear the 10ths in the first 2 measures
    Louis Armstrong plays the melody on Trumpet and the Trombone and Clarinet in 10ths answer him. The Trombone plays Bb C C#D while the Clarinet plays D Eb E F a 10th up from the Trombone.
  8. Man. You shoud have been banned on this site about a month ago, IMO.
    You are an admitted troll. Your Profile has changed three times, depending on what you want to say and what you seem to need. Whatever that could possibly be...who knows.
    I got your PM about "trying to do the right thing".
    As usual, good luck.
  9. TroyK

    TroyK Moderator Staff Member

    Mar 14, 2003
    Seattle, WA
    Do you know the bass figure that they are talking about in "Take a Walk on the Wild Side"? If so, play it, then play it again, leave the root where it is and drop the 10th and octave to make it a 3rd. Does it sound the same? Would the song still have it's hook? Would it have still been a hit?

    Maybe on the later two, but if you can't hear the difference, nothing here or in a book is going to explain it to you.
  10. hdiddy

    hdiddy Official Forum Flunkee Supporting Member

    Mar 16, 2004
    Richmond, CA
    LOL. Yeah... silly troll.

    I've never heard of anyone using these books. AFAIK, the go-to reference is always Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book. Don't let the troll confuse you Narco. :)
  11. ryco


    Apr 24, 2005
    Close third double-stops on a bass can sound pretty muddy.
    10th double-stops sound better.
  12. David1234


    Jun 1, 2004
    Sydney, Australia
    Endorsing Artist: SWR Amplifiers
    I think we've got a clash of terminology, not a clash of conflicting music theories.

    On the one hand we've got intervals, and a 10th is an interval that's nice to play on basses. It's nicer than voicing the notes close together as thirds where a bass's thick tone tends to blur the notes (usually) into a musical version of mud. Thirds are okay played high on many basses but rarely sound clear enough to be of much use when played in a low register.

    On the other hand we've got that part of the theory of harmony which talks about the naming and spelling chords, and why a 13 chord is spelled pretty differently to a 6 chord.

    Any number is fair game in describing intervals, but only some numbers have a meaning when spelling chords ie those numbers that we have a rule for. (6, 7, 9, 11 and 13 have rules for triad chords and 2 and 4 have rules for either suspended or 'add' chords, and that's pretty much it).

    A note on spelling chords that may give some clarity for the OP. Even number chords are usually based on a major triad where odd number chords on the dominant 7 chord.
    - When the number is 2 or 4 the chord should ordinarily specified as either being a Sus chord (the 3rd is replaced with the 2 or 4) or an Add chord (the 3rd remains and a 2 or 4 is voiced somewhere ... not necessarily in the same octave). The chord is still based on the major triad unless specified as minor.
    - When the number is 6, it is a major triad plus a major 6 note, although it's usually accepted that a major 7 chord can be substituted for it without harm.
    - When the number is high it will be odd! With 7, 9, 11 and 13 chords, you apply the jazz spelling and base the chord on the dominant 7 chord with extensions, unless the chord is specified as minor or major. If it's minor, use the dorian mode to spell it.
  13. Silly troll, "Tricks are for kids". Be a bass player or get off the pot.
  14. hdiddy

    hdiddy Official Forum Flunkee Supporting Member

    Mar 16, 2004
    Richmond, CA
    Dude, I think you're working too hard.

    A G6 chord (g b d e) with a 6 one octave up is still a G13, but you just don't know if it's a dom or a maj chord since the 7 and 9 missing. Either that or it's just G6+13. The sound is of the 13 is still there.

    And oh yeah, until this thread cropped up, I had forgotten who I learned open vs. closed voicings from.... Mark Levine himself! :p

    Our silly troll fails twice... the 2nd time cuz he just fails at trolling. Dear troll, stop trolling and play more bass. :D

  15. Or, the fact that I was part of the C.C.N.Y. Gil Evans project, which he conducted and rehearsed for 10 weeks. I guess I could post or send you the charts in his hand, which he had me copy illegally in the school library because he stayed up all night writing for us and couldn't copy our parts.I don't think anybody has these. I was going to give your buddy my signed Harold Land album as an olive branch but I guess that's not good enough either. Or, you could call George Roberts{he and Gil could do a treatise on 10ths} and verify that I played with him in the 80's at Harrah's Lake Tahoe, for Eddy Arnold. Good luck. As usual.
  16. Frick man, that was practically biblical.
  17. This is completely wrong. No. I am not backing down on this. Your making up your own rules that don't exist and giving mis- info to people who want to know. Why?
  18. Ed Fuqua

    Ed Fuqua

    Dec 13, 1999
    Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
    Because he's trying to take over the world, Chuck. He's trying to take over the world.
  19. JtheJazzMan


    Apr 10, 2006
    Theory is totally not standardised so arguing is rather pointless.

    Rather use the opportunity to learn new terms so youre not confused the next time a singer hands you a ****** chart :bag:

    However for the sake of an argument.....

    G6 means the 7th is replaced by a 6th. No 7th

    G13 means dominant 7th. Theres gotta be a b7th (F) in there. Period.
  20. hdiddy

    hdiddy Official Forum Flunkee Supporting Member

    Mar 16, 2004
    Richmond, CA

    Kneel before Zod! :mad:

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