#11 vs. b5 chords...should I care?

Yes, one of those chords can have a perfect fifth in it while the other should not. For the D7#11 i would likely not play the #11 in my line and let the guitar/piano take it. Pretty much it would be a D7 to me. With that said, context matters, and your line could feature the #11 if it makes musical sense in the moment or if you are the only one outlining the chord. You could also use perfect fifth on the D7b5 as long as it's taking you somewhere meaningful, like a chord tone of the next chord in the sequence.

 

You got it! Hopefully some others chime in with their perspective as well as i am always curious how folks might incorporate the extension(#11) in chords from a bass perspective.

 

On a D Dominant 7 chord (D7xxx) spelled either "D7b5" or "D7#11", the natural 5 (A natural) can be a supportive note in the bassline, chord voicing, or the melody. (See/Hear the bassline in the YT below @0:21 below (the chord is "D7..." with a G# in the melody), the bassist IS playing an A natural in his bassline.
(NOTE: on a D MINOR 7b5 Chord - I would NOT like to hear an A Natural in either the bassline OR the melody.)
Thanks.

 

I don't like the last example either, the triangle implies a major seventh which isn't included in any of the others and has a jarring sound. I think that's WHY the other arrangers labeled it C6, jazz arrangers are uncomfortable with traids but the Maj7 just sounds bad

Chords don't include scalar information. They're notes with intervals in-between them; they make great landing spots, but the steps you take in-between those intervals are not logically, irrevocably proscribed, they're choices. We use different modes of the same scale in a ii-V-I cause it sounds nice in context, but it's not true that a dorian scale is the only thing you can play against a minor 7 chord.

 

To me, take the A train sounds better walking through the whole tone scale than Mixo #11...
So maybe D7b5 makes more sense than the newer real books nomenclature?

 

Well, to me D7ALT. means "a D7 and some undefined extensions" which is less than useful. If you're going to ALT it, for chrissakes tell us what you're ALTing it to!

In the 40 or so years I've been playing this tune, I have almost invariably either used a whole tone scale or an D7 scale over the 3rd and 4th bars of the tune. I would not hang on the A natural obviously, but if it falls under the fingers for an instant it's not so bad. I wouldn't play the A natural on bass, for sure.

What would really be interesting would be to figure out what Duke and Duke's band played there. There was a lot of ear playing going on in that band, driven by what Duke played at the piano. A lot of the interesting dissonances you hear on record, by all accounts were the result of guys being dissatisfied with somewhat sketchy scores and finding notes that fit. This being a Strayhorn tune and not a Duke tune, I don't know how explicit Strays would have been in writing out detailed harmonies.

(What that last paragraph alludes to is my firm belief that all music is played by ear at some level and the dots and letters/numbers are a code that helps you play things that sound good. I am neither a high powered theorist though I can sort of hold my own; I am certainly not a professional jazz bassist; but my way of figuring out a way through chord changes might be meaningful anyway. I listen till I get the sound of the tune in my head, then I use notes that sound good. Of course I use theoretical knowledge to help me pick them, but every time I start using music theory to pick notes and don't pay enough attention to how they sound, it sounds bad.)

 

I don’t usually like to chime in on jazz theory discussions as it makes my head hurt, but in Take the A Train I will almost always add the b5 to my bass line and solo as it reflects what the other musicians are playing. Also, a common alteration of a “major II7” chord (such as in measures 3 & 4 of Donna Lee) is to add the #11. In cases like these I like to think of the dominant 7th. chord a whole step above the major II chord when soloing. So in the case of Donna Lee, think C7 in measures 3 & 4 instead of Bb7. Of course, you need to be “judicious” in how you use C7 here; some note note combinations feel better than others!

 

Great advice from our theory sage's thus far, but one thing that I was waiting to be said is that there can be a difference in the notes you'd play over those chords in a jazz band setting with a harmony player, but it won't be because of the chord symbol. That's because, in my experience, there isn't a consensus about what either C7b5 or C7#11 mean and so different harmony players will voice the chords in different ways. I find that when I see either chord the first time I play with a harmony player, I'll usually take a guess on the first chorus and see if it clashes or not. If it does, I won't play my guess again with them again until it starts clashing again and then I'll know that they've changed their voicing and change my line.

I think Alt-chords are similar, in that, there's no consensus about exactly what an "Alt" chord is and some player's rarely change which voicing they use for a particular measure and others change frequently. The players I like best change their voicing based on what the soloist is doing but that could mean that they're staying away from that #5 until the soloist gets cooking or vice versa.

Part of the reason I love jazz is to listen to what the masters choose to do.

 

Oi, yeah, I phrased it pretty awkwardly. Tried to hint at the fundamental relationship between chords and scales and ended up saying something like "you have to choose the intervals inside of the intervals" and it'll be a wonder if OP gains anything by it lol.

Often when I see a chord with a diminished quality I will play BOTH the natural 5 and the b5 with emphasis. It's bluesy. And it just doesn't matter what the upper structure is, P5 always sounds bassy and powerful and only ever sounds outright "wrong" on a tritone substitution or other scenarios where ONLY the root is changing.

 

As a less experienced bassist than many of you, I really appreciate this discussion, because these two chord symbols have always confused the heck out of me. Seeing 7b5 or 7#11 kinda scares me away from a natural 5 (should it?) and often results in my defaulting to a whole tone sound or staying away from the 5s altogether. Often it sounds fine, but I'd like to be aware of other good options.

 

Thanks Chris. Yes, the intention is definitely clear on mi7b5 chords. But not so much on the 7b5 or 7#11. I guess that's what we're talking about.