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12's harder to hear on stage than 10's?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by CaptainWally, Nov 28, 2005.


  1. CaptainWally

    CaptainWally Supporting Member

    Oct 21, 2000
    Sandy Eggo, CA
    I recently switched from two SWR Gol. 2x10's to Bergie HT+EX.

    The tone of the Bergies is to die for, but on stage, I'm finding it harder to hear myself than with the SWRs. It doesn't seem to be a volume problem since I'm being told by the sound person to turn down and I still can't hear myself. The sound person, of course, is 20-30 ft away.

    Is this because 12's have a longer "throw?"
     
  2. getz76

    getz76

    Apr 3, 2005
    Hoboken, NJ
    I'm sure I could throw a HT112 farther than I could throw a SWR Goliath Jr., but that's just due to weight.

    You are using different cabinets, but are you using the same amp? If so, are you using the same settings?

    The SWR Goliath Jr. has a very pronounced low-mid hump in its response. The Bergantino does not.
     
  3. CaptainWally

    CaptainWally Supporting Member

    Oct 21, 2000
    Sandy Eggo, CA
    Yeah, same amp...Ashdown ABM 500 set flat.

    So you think it's more of a hump vs. hi-fi issue than a 10's vs. 12's issue?
     
  4. jokerjkny

    jokerjkny

    Jan 19, 2002
    NY / NJ / PA
    well,

    12" speakers arent gonna be as fast or as responsive as a 10" speaker. so you're gonna lose that punch and cut. IMHO, i cant gig without 10" loaded cabs.

    but if i'm using a 12" loaded cab, i can get away w/ a punchier sound, but cranking up the lower mids in the 200-120Hz range. maybe add a little 3kHz for some cut, too.

    and IMHO, i'd take the fatter sounding bergs over an SWR anyday.
     
  5. CaptainWally

    CaptainWally Supporting Member

    Oct 21, 2000
    Sandy Eggo, CA
    Thanks - I hear yah on the gotta-have 10's. I felt that way for years, but these Bergies changed my mind on 12's.

    I did mess around with mid-boost a bit, and it does help a bit - but it's still a stretch. Part of the problem is our drummer really hits hard and I'm stuck right next to him.
     
  6. Pickebass

    Pickebass Supporting Member

    Jul 12, 2004
    San Antonio, TX
    Bergs like alot of power. The 500 is at the border. It would probably be happier with more power. I think 12s cut, and the bergs project especially well due to the shallowness of the cab. They don't have the sonic punch of some other cabs like an Eden 210xlt but definitely a great sounding rig.
     
  7. CaptainWally

    CaptainWally Supporting Member

    Oct 21, 2000
    Sandy Eggo, CA
    Hmm, interesting point on power. I always assumed I had enough.

    I am getting enough volume - my problem is I can't hear myself close to the speakers.
     
  8. I'll take the Bergs over most any small rig around. A trick I learned with these little fellers is to stand to the side of them. Might add a Gramma pad too. Adding some EQ is helpful. You may also be experiencing some 'cancelation' from other enclosures like the foh/subs. We play in a lot of crappy rooms were this happens. You may also want to raise or tilt-up the top cab. I've at times put my HT on a tilted amp stand and put my amp on the EX sitting on the Gramma. Different things to try.
     
  9. getz76

    getz76

    Apr 3, 2005
    Hoboken, NJ
    I get plenty of volume out of my HT112+EX112 using an Eden WT-330; 330 watts into 4 ohms.

    Everyone should read some recent threads; speaker diameter has significantly less to do with everything being discussed here than a host of other variables.
     
  10. i put about 600W (carefully) into one HT-112 and have absolutely no problems. in fact, what i love about the HT-112 is its coherence and natural ability to cut through the mix. i've found i can scoop the mids if i want and still get plenty of cut from the HT-112.

    perhaps the ashdown isn't nearly as well matched with it as it was with the SWR? i know the eden WT-330 matches very well with it, and i have a warwick preamp that sounds very nice, too.

    robb.
     
  11. getz76

    getz76

    Apr 3, 2005
    Hoboken, NJ
    Nice seeing you around these parts, robb. I hope the move has back to the cold North has treated you well and hope you are having fun with your new Peavey.

    The WT-330 indeed matches up well.

    I have also used the following to good effect:

    Kern IP-777 -> Peavey DPC 1400X
    Demeter VTBP201s -> Stewart World 2.1
    SWR Interstellar Overdrive -> Peavey DPC 1400X

    I think the Ashdown would be more than usable; I have used some of their budget line and been relatively impressed.

    What about other factors; was it the same stage as usual? Were you using the same bass? Were you in the same spot on the stage?
     
  12. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    Being able to hear yourself on stage is mostly a matter of the midrange, as it's midrange that your ears most rely on for the perception of loudness. Twelves have a narrower midrange dispersion angle than tens, so that well my be the cause of your difficulty hearing them. Angle the cab so that the cones are aimed at your ears and it should help.
     
  13. Fuzzbass

    Fuzzbass P5 with overdrive Supporting Member

    It's probably not an efficiency issue if your soundman says you have plenty of volume. So, it probably is a "hump vs. hi-fi" issue!

    I ran a pair of Goliath Juniors for a few years. I liked the growl, and used an Aphex Exciter if I needed more phatness. When I got Berg cabs, I sold the Exciter because the Bergs are plenty phat. But I sometimes boost mids for more punch, even when running all tens. I attribute all this to the flatter response of the Bergs.

    Note: I've never tried the small 1x12 Bergs. I did own the HT212 for awhile: it was a great cab, but I sold it in favor of the HT310. The 212 had bigger lows, but the 310 cut a little better onstage and was more friendly in boomy rooms.

    Maybe you can talk to your soundman to find out what's too loud about your sound. My suggestion would be to cut lows and/or boost mids... that should allow you to hear yourself better onstage while keeping the same volume. Hopefully your soundman will agree.
     
  14. tombowlus

    tombowlus If it sounds good, it is good Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 3, 2003
    North central Ohio
    Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
    Maybe the SWR was cutting through the mids differently relative to the other instruments? Man, I would have thought that you would hear yourself a lot better with the Bergs. :confused:

    Tom.
     
  15. CaptainWally

    CaptainWally Supporting Member

    Oct 21, 2000
    Sandy Eggo, CA
    Me too :(
     
  16. getz76

    getz76

    Apr 3, 2005
    Hoboken, NJ
    I have a HT112 + EX112 setup and a HT322 (with 1x12" and 2x10" + tweeter).

    The setups sound different. The HT322 has more low-end response than the 112 cabinets. However, both are very clear sounding cabinets. I wouldn't describe them as flat, but they are less mid-pronounced than your average "buy it at Guitar Center" bass cabinet. Nothing wrong with those cabinets, but they sound different and definitely respond differently to EQ. I rarely turn up the bass EQ on these cabinets.
     
  17. Why is that - does it stem from speaker diameter, thus 15 would have even less midrange dispersion?

    I'm suddenly reconsidering my idea of getting a 212 for 10's now...
     
  18. Yes, it stems from cone diameter. This fenemenom (did i spell this word correct?) is called beaming.
    Theoretical max freq before beaming according to Eminence:

    10 inch: 1658 Hertz
    12 inch: 1335 Hertz
    15 inch: 1052 Hertz

    info source: http://editweb.iglou.com/eminence/eminence/pages/params02/params.htm
     
  19. morebass!

    morebass! I'm listening

    May 31, 2002
    Madison WI
    Like many, I went from 15s to 10s many years ago and found it much easier to hear myself onstage without being too loud out in the room. I've tried 12s and they seem more similar to 15s than to 10s. To maximize your nearfield sound even more try sealed cabinets.
     
  20. Well, beaming is not the only thing to be considered... most 4x10's suffer from comb filtering issues due to their drivers not being in a vertical array. The comb filtering is just as big a problem as the beaming of 15's... i prefer a 2x12 with the drivers in vertical array... best of both worlds IMO.