Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by DRN, Jun 26, 2003.

  1. DRN


    Mar 17, 2002
    Las Vegas
    I am currently playing (2) Eden 410XLT cabs with a detuned 5 string so the lower hz is really low. It feels as if the low hz is really overdriving the cabs so I want to look into biamping deleting a 410 and adding a 115 cab to handle the low hz's.

    My question is this, most of the searches recommend a bagend cab for lows but in the same breath everyone describes it as mostly punchy mids and says it lacks low end. I am looking for tight low end but also want it to handle the low low hz's. Will this cab work for this?

    Also any other recommendations on a single 15?
  2. Solution: BE S15B-D. Just don't use it alone, and you really need about 350-1000 watts to really get it going. I have yet to put it through its paces, but I will soon be getting a QSC PLX 2402 to really drive it. We'll see how it sounds then...


    P.S. One major downside: HUGE! But not too heavy.
    Don't know of anthing else, unless you go 18.

    "And you will know me by the sound of my bass..."

    "As always, take what I say with a grain of salt..I'm used to it."
  3. Get an El Whappo 21
  4. Eric Cioe

    Eric Cioe

    Jun 4, 2001
    Holland, MI
    Yamaha SW 1x18 PA sub. The only cheap solution to monsterous low end. Probably $350 new.
  5. Forget what I said, I just realized you're talking about really LOW!

    In that case you might want to try a BE 18e-d with the ELF-1 crossover-- it goes down to 8hz! The Whappo Grande is probably too much money, unless you got money to burn...

    P.S. I am in no way affliated with Bag End, in case it looks that way. I just visit there website a lot (www.bagend.com), and I'm a proud owner. :D

  6. DRN


    Mar 17, 2002
    Las Vegas
    Thanks for the replies.
    I don't know if I want to get into 18's I am trying to stay with a tight agressive sound I just want to take some of the lows away from the 10's so they do not distort.

    CrazySean Is the BD tight like the 15D or is it more of a loose sub? The cab size fits a little better with my 410 too.
    I would only be getting rid of (1) of the (2) 410 cabs. So I would still have a 410 for on top of the 15.

  7. Petebass


    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    The distortion you're talking about is a result of feeding the cab frequencies below the frequency the box is tuned to. The danger here is that with a de-tuned 5th string, most 15's will also distort - maybe not as bad as the 10's, but it will still be there. Remember that a standard 5th string playing a B note has a fundamental of 31.5 Hz. There arent many 15's with a resonant frequency way down there, and you're playing notes that are lower again.

    If you wanna go that low, and you wanna do it loud, an 18 is you're better option. Unfortunately 18's have a stereotype of being sloppy and muddy, but that's not true. The cheap ones are, but the same can be said for cheap 15's and 10's.

    If you want a 15 that snaps at the heels of some 18's? JBL E145. Mine is a ripper. But even if you can find a speaker, you'll have to build a cab for it. The other option is the Bag End. I think you should have a listen to is and decide for yourself what it sounds like.

    My 2 cents.
  8. People might be getting sick of me doing this but these cabinets ROCK! Make sure you've got the power to push 'em though. Check out the "Low B-2W" and "Low B-4W" on the products page. More tight bottom then an arobics convention!!!

  9. Well, I don't have a S15-D yet to compare, but the S15B-d with it's port cover off can get pretty low. I actually think it sounds better with the port cover off when using it alone--it seems to have a unique dark sound, and not boomy from what I remember with a pick. But if you plan on downtuning, the your best bet probably is keep it off from what I've heard on another thread.

    However, I will be able to compare the port cover on and off, and get back to as soon I get my amp back. With the port cover off, it might be more tight like your looking for.

    Remember, it is bigger than it looks on the BE's website. I could not believe how wide and deep this cab is once I got it. It does not fit in my car! I've only used it once outside the house when I first got it. And everything we played sounded worse because at the time I didn't know about the port cover and I didn't have my eq set up right. I cut the bass to about 10 o'clock and cranked the low-mids and took the cover off and add it added a whole other dimension to my GK 2x10 combo. The B is not subdued anymore, it rings loud and clear like never before!


    P.S. You might want to consider the S15 custom instead. It's not as deep as mine, but not as bukly. It's probably smaller than your 410, but you can put your 15 on top of it. I've actually heard somewhere that this is a better setup because it improves the 410's lowend since it is closer to the floor. Don't remember who has the custom version (he'll show up), and it's not listed on BE site, so I don't know the specs. He got it at www.bassnw.com. That said, I doubt that the custom version has as much low end as mine because the one I have is much larger cab.

    Don't trust what all of what I say, though. You have to have some other people with more experience to back me up, but nobody ever does cause not that many people have the version I have. Most people have a S15-d instead.

    Nonetheless, you really have to try one out for yourself. "Trust your own ears" as they say.
  10. Does anyone else out there have or tried a BE S15B-D? Comments and comparisons to other cabs would be appreciated.


  11. DRN


    Mar 17, 2002
    Las Vegas
    Petebass--So do you agree I am a great canidate for biamping? I tune my low B to an A and my E string to a D. I am just overdriving the tens when I dig in.

    The only reason I was trying to stay away from 18's is because you have to be in the crowd to really hear it. Since during gigs the rig is basically an onstage monitor I want something focused and tight and agressive. If you all think the BE ELF or another 18 would acomplish this recommend away.

    Unfortunately the Philadelphia/NJ music store market sucks no one I have seen carries bag eng or really anything else worth while. So I am going on recommendations and a 30 day money back gaurantee if I can get it.

    Thanks for the help.
  12. wiggleworm


    May 29, 2003

    oooh, I love low A! But the low frequency can do scary things to speakers. You said: "Since during gigs the rig is basically an onstage monitor I want something focused and tight and agressive." In that case, my recommendation would be to use a good EQ to roll off the extreme low bass and let the PA deal with the bass frequencies. You will be able to hear the harmonics of the low A just fine, and the sound of your amp will not muddy the sound coming through the PA.

    Another suggestion: on one song where I use a low A, I double the part in octaves on the other ("normal") A string. When I do this, the higher octave provides punch and definition, while the lower octave gives a nice, sinister rumble. I suppose you could also use an octave effect.

    But to answer your original question: I just bought an Avatar 15" cab, and it sounds great down to low C. I haven't tried a low A with it, but if you like I can test it at my next rehearsal and let you know how it sounds. Very reasonably priced, surpisingly light. I would think if you got two of these you'd be set.

  13. Ok, the main reason I got the S15B-d is becasue of: "Sad But True" by Metallica. Everytime I downtuned to low A, I would play it and it would sound like crap: all muffled and dull. With some distortion too of course, if the volume was too loud. I went through the same thing you're going through.

    So in that case, I needed something that could handle a low A and someone suggested the Bag End. It was wide enough to go underneath my combo, so I went for it.

    As what for Petebass is saying, I saw another thread of him saying the same thing basically: Do not feed your cabs a lower frquency than can handle. It will cause them to distort. A may low A's Hz may lower than 40hz, which is as low as my BE can supposedly go, but tell me this: Did Jason Newsted use an 18? He uses an 810 I believe when he plays live, and it is possible that an 18 was used for recording, but I highly doubt it. So as long as you don't crank the volume, you should be find. Just the watch the cone movement. I'll being keeping my grille off for when I practice for now on. Don't want to "BLOW" the speaker like Petebass has warned before.

    As always, takes what I say with a grain of salt.


    P.S. As soon as I got my cab, my band decided not play "Sad But True" anymore. I no longer downtune to low A, but at least the B sounds better now. I'll try out "Sad but True" on Mon. when I get my amp back, and will let you know for sure that it can handle the low A because it's been while since I've played it.

    Do you know anything else in low A?

    P.P.S Before you say it, a subwoofer in a PA is what is they probably use to completely handle the low A or lower when playing live. But he needs something that he can use without a PA.
  14. wiggleworm


    May 29, 2003
    About Jason Newstead:

    (disclaimer: I've never listened to "Sad But True")

    here's an interesting question:

    Jason might have used an 18, or an 8x10, or a Phil Jones 32x5 for that matter :) But when you listen to it at home or in your car, on (presumably) much smaller speakers, it still sounds good (I think).

    So if you are a recording engineer, how do you record these extremely low notes so they sound good on a variety of home speaker systems?

  15. redneck2wild


    Nov 27, 2002
    Memphis, TN
    If you are detuning your Low B to a Low A you probably want an 18 instead of a 15. That Low A would be around 27.5 Hz - lower than most 15s could produce. It is a myth that 18s are not tight and you can't hear them on stage. If you biamp your signal with just the lows going to a quality 18, you will be surprised how tight the sound will be (and how much you will feel the lows).
    Folded horns will hit much harder away from the stage than on the stage but you can still hear them. If you get a front loaded 18, you will hear it better close up than a Folded horn with an 18.
    On recording those low frequencies - many studios use a combination of direct signal from the Bass and miked signals from the cabinet. The direct signal usually produces deeper lows and most studio recording equipment has specs down to 20Hz.
    Studio Engineers are going to EQ a mix so that it sounds good on both quality Hi-Fi systems and cheap car audio systems.
  16. ThunderStik

    ThunderStik Guest

    Jun 25, 2001
    Claremore OK.
    Its called harmonics. A low e (40hz) is not a pure 40hz signal, it is comprised of harmonics. The second harmonic of an E is 80hz and the 3rd is 160 and so on. Depending on the bass and the player and the rig the second harmonic can be as strong or stronger than the fundamental. So when a note is played you dont hear just a 40hz E but the whole harmonic series which we know as E.

    There is a phenomena called "percieved pitch" in which if part of the series is taken away our brains put the puzzle back together and we still recognize that note as an E or whatever note is being played. This is why many bass rigs dont reproduce 31hz (low B) in large quantity but we still hear it in large part because of the second harmonic (62hz).

    This was for wiggleworm.
  17. BruceWane


    Oct 31, 2002
    Houston, TX
    This is kinda like asking "how do I produce a record that sounds like "Pyromania"?. Ask Mutt Lange. I'm sure that for a couple million he'll personally work with you. Well, maybe not. If you're better looking than Shania Twain you've maybe got a chance.

    Seriously, this is precisely why good recording engineers make a good living. I know it sounds kind of counter-intuitive, but it takes quite a bit of equipment combined with quite a bit of knowlege to make those recordings that sound "natural".
  18. DRN


    Mar 17, 2002
    Las Vegas
    Ok so what would everyone recommend for a front loaded extremely tight fast 18 cab?

    I am trying to maintain a tight agressive low end. I am just afraid the 18 will sound more like a sub (room filler) and not be tight and focused with that kinda hit you in the chest vibe.

    I am going to run to a GC or something later to see what they have but last time I went they did not have much.

    Dimensions and weight of the cab are not as improtant as the sound. We have a truck and my cabs are in flight cases already.

  19. redneck2wild


    Nov 27, 2002
    Memphis, TN
    If you are going to a GC to try out cabs with 18s, try the PA subs. The GC here has around 9 or 10 different PA subs with 18s in them.

    Ask if you can hook up a smaller Bass cab (like a 2x10) for the highs. Try to use an amp that has 2 channels that has biamp capability. I would set the crossover no higher than 100hz (50-75hz would be better and give more punch to the 18 as it would not be producing frequencies above that point).
  20. DRN


    Mar 17, 2002
    Las Vegas

    I just called Bag end to see where the nearest dealer would be. The receptionist puts me on hold and normally would come back on and give me a location or send me to a web site but the next voice I hear is "Hi this is John is sales how can I help you" In the day of voice mail, e-mail, www, push one for this push two for that I was impressed. He proceeded to ask what I was lookng for and why and we went over his product line. What further impressed me was he found two local (out of state, well close enough) dealers and asked me for my phone number. He wanted to call each store to check what they had in stock. I gave him my number and hung up the phone. Within 10 minutes he calls me back and he has a dealer with a 15D and a 15XD He said he could not find the 15B-D but if I like the sound of these he would be happy to send the store a cab so I could try it out before I bought it. He proceeded to give me the stores phone number and a contact and said call him for a personalized appointment to try them out.

    So off I go (well once I am done work) I am going to try them out. I am very impressed with the level of customer service both John and Bag end showed. You do not see much of this anymore. I did not ask but I hope they have an ELF 18 also. That would cover everything.

    I will let you know how I make out.