18" bass cab....or just more smaller drivers?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Mad Subwoofer, Sep 26, 2001.

  1. I push a whole lot of 30hz in our dub band and am trying to decide if I should buy an Eden 18 or what. I usually play through an Eden 2x12xlt, sometimes two of them. I haven't had much luck combining my Mesa 15 and the 2x12xlt, the sound is too "wooly" with some "wolf" tones goin' on. Maybe a weird over-emphasising of frequencies or something. The best sound so far was the 4x12's together.
    Would an eden 18 give me that freaky sub i crave or will it just shoot it farther into the crowd? Are the lows from one of these something I am even going to benefit from on stage?
    Is there something to be said for increasing the number of identical drivers on stage to improve lowend response (two Eden 2x12xlt's?) Maybe a more focussed, less blurry tone would be the result?
  2. Nightbass


    May 1, 2001
    Seattle, WA
    Oh good, you're the person we need to buy the Bergantino HT-118 and let us know how it sounds! :)

  3. No, an informent:rolleyes:

    The Bagend 18 seems to handle low's pretty well but I have no Idea about the Eden.
  4. Well....I am willing to take the plunge. For the greater good of the Talk Bass membership or something....but really; bigger speakers or more drivers? Floppy and big or big, deep and punchy? 4 Eden 12's sounded amazing....
  5. MikeyD


    Sep 9, 2000
    It's not totally clear to me what you're after. If you want to move a lot of air, in general the most efficient way to do it is with bigger drivers. But bigger drivers need bigger cabinets. You can get smaller drivers that are flat down to 30 Hz., but you have to feed them huge amounts of power to get appreciable output, and their cone excursions tend to be exuberant at the extreme low frequencies - and they don't tend to "throw" the sound out to the audience as well as their bigger counterparts. If you need a lot of fundamental out in the audience, you probably will need bigger speakers. I'm sure Eden's 1x18 is nice, but even it may have some shortcomings down at 30 Hz. There aren't a lot of cabinets out there that are capable of a big output down there. I have an Eden 2x15, which specs out at least as well as the 1x18, but its output is down a bit at 30 Hz. It is certainly acceptable to me, but I don't require absolutely flat response - and I rarely go down to low B anyway.

    If you are willing to haul big subwoofers and power amps, then find an amp-subwoofer combination that will put out the volume you need at 30 Hz. If not, then you'll have to decide what you're willing to sacrifice - volume or low end.
    - Mike
  6. MikeyD


    Sep 9, 2000
    I should add that there is a technology that may be able to provide extremely deep bass in some venues without having to haul around huge speaker cabinets. See http://www.thebuttkicker.com/ for an example of this. It works like a vibration shaker table (used to test products for vibration failures), but couples into a floor or building structure to shake the daylights out of it. In essence, it turns a floor into a woofer diaphragm. This is akin to an early wise-cracking post of mine (in another thread) about placing a V-8 engine with an unbalanced flywheel on the stage. But seriously, this could provide an answer - particularly for a fixed set-up. On the other hand, if you are going from venue to venue, its performance might be very unpredictable. And you'd need a separate huge amp to drive it. And I wouldn't be surprised that it might actually do some damage in some marginal cases (e.g., cause plaster to fall or something). That's all I know about this or similar products at the moment.
    - Mike
  7. The Bag End 18" cabs are -6 dB at 36 Hz and really aren't much for a true subwoofer. The B-52 bandpass cabs are -3 dB at 30 Hz. They are very specialized, so I'd want to audition one before buying. Flite claims 32 Hz for their cabs, but IMO that is utter bullsh*t. Flite isn't willing to substantiate their claims of their cabs going so much lower than ALL the competition. He must have a special waver to violate the laws of physics... :D

    I have not come up with a solution other than using true subwoofers, a huge amp, and bi-amping to get lots of bottom. One of my Rockford 15" subs move the same amount of air as 2.7 Rockford 10" subs. Also, my 15s go substantially lower than do my 10s. I run a pair of 1x15 Rockfords.

    On paper, the 2x10 can be mounted in a 3 cubic foot extended bass shelf alignment which will give a nice peak right at 31 Hz. Even though it doesn't move as much air, the 2x10 with mutual coupling calculates at 91 dB compared to 87 dB of the 1x15.

    The problem with the 2x10 design is the huge port area required to keep velocity below 5% MACH. The large port requires a very long duct, on the order of 60 inches, and that eats up cabinet space. The alternative is a pair of 12" passive radiators, but I haven't gotten that far yet.
  8. My jaw is literally on the floor...! Buttkicker? That is the nuttiest idea ever! I have to get one! I love it. Can you imagine one of those subharmonic foot pedal sweeps on my Korg G5 bass synth with one of those? Too funny!
    I think where I'm getting at with the 12 thing is that I need a "prescent" throaty mid that most 15's won't give me.
    that Butt Kicker "Air pump" looks like some sort of passive radiator.....? Oh man....
  9. Bgavin: So smaller drivers need larger ports, like those on the SWR Henry 8x8, really big? They need long tubes as well?
    What about the Bag End ELF system? Don't those go down to 10 hz or something? Maybe I could have a setup with a single space power amp and the ELF intergrator rack-thingy and the single 18". Compact, no?
  10. If you want better lows go for a home stereo subwoffer kinda thing, a friend of mine that plays "latino dub" uses customized cabs loaded with different woofers I'll check with him and see what kind. You wouldn't beleive the lows he gets punchy and smooth at the same time, very cool.
  11. The minimum area of the port is a direct function of the amount of volume displaced by the driver. A large port area avoids whistling and chuffing noises by keeping the port air velocity below 5% the speed of sound. The 10" mentioned above requires a smaller port area than the 15" does, because it only moves 37% as much air as the 15". The port area doubles when two drivers are installed in the same cabinet, such as a 2x10.

    The port length (duct) is a direct function between the port area and the internal cabinet volume. Increasing the port area raises the port tuning frequency. Increasing the duct length lowers the port tuning frequency. The problem comes when using a large port in a small cabinet. A very long duct is required to tune a large port in a small cabinet. The long duct eats up internal cabinet volume and makes the net cabinet volume even smaller. This in turn makes the required duct length even longer.

    My EBS design-in-progress for my 2x10 cabinet is almost as large as the 1x15, due to the port size problem. The 1x15 still moves more air, goes down lower, and costs less. The only compact 10" solution I've come up with so far is using two 12" rear-firing passive radiators as a substitute for big ports in small cabinets. PRs are typically sized higher than their driver to avoid over excursion. The downside is more expense, and mandatory vertical mounting. PRs can never fire up or down.. only horizontal due to the huge mass of their cones.

    The ELF is the smallest, deepest and probably the easiest subwoofer solution I've seen. And very expensive. Put your wallet on the counter, and the sales guy will give you back the leather part, and keep everything else.. :D
  12. I've already started a thread about this but thought I'd ask any way.....
    Acme claims their B-2 to be equivelent to an 18". Would this not be a deep +decent alternative to the ELF system or should I just jump in and buy a Bag end 18" or 2x12" ELF compatible box +processor?
  13. ThunderStik

    ThunderStik Guest

    Jun 25, 2001
    Claremore OK.
    Bgavin, will the port still operate normaly if it is outside the cab? If so could you use some pvc or plastistic tubing that was "rolled" like a screw. I was thinking about that one day when I figured out there was not enough room for the port in a cab. It would be basically a "tailpipe" or a "stak" and you could move it where you wanted. just an idea.