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1930's Hawkes value

Discussion in 'Basses [DB]' started by jvillarreal, Oct 19, 2005.


  1. jvillarreal

    jvillarreal

    Oct 7, 2002
    Tulsa, OK
    Hey Folks - I'm about to take a look at an early 1930's Hawkes Concert bass that I'm interested in buying. It is supposedly in excellent shape, has original varnish, and has had the neck reset sometime in the past. There are several for sale on the internet that show a huge price range for these instruments... I've seen them at $15-23K.

    What is a resonable price for a Hawkes Concert model bass from this decade, assuming it's in great shape?

    Are these basses more valuable across the pond? - The higher prices that I've seen them go for have mainly been in the UK.

    Thanks alot!
     
  2. Alex Scott

    Alex Scott

    May 8, 2002
    Austin, TX
    Hey Dude. I saw one for $8-9k a few years back- mid 90's, but a lot has changed since then. Does anyone know if there is a pretty wide variance in these, I thought they were partially factory made, 100 plus years ago?

    Did you ask any shops if they had some? Robertsons?

    Good Luck.
     
  3. jvillarreal

    jvillarreal

    Oct 7, 2002
    Tulsa, OK
    Hey Alex, good to hear from you!

    I haven't asked Robertson's, but there are a few listed on the net: Bass Garden has a Professor model for $21,500, The Contrabass Shoppe has several models and Kolstein's has a "Revere Hawks" [sic?].

    I'll let you know how it went next week :)
     
  4. KSB - Ken Smith

    KSB - Ken Smith Banned Commercial User

    Mar 1, 2002
    Perkasie, PA USA
    Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
    The one on Kolsteins looks completly different than the one in London at Contrabass shop. Look and compare for yourself.
    http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2299.htm
    http://www.kolstein.com/instruments/bass/b2558/index.shtml

    The Rivere is a Mirecourt style Bass where as the Kolstein looks like the German version but I hear they were also made in France. Were there 2 shops in France that made for Hawkes.

    There were probably several shops is the 3 countries making these with only one 'constant'. The name 'Hawkes'. The Panormo model I believe was made in England only be a man named Green but that's just a theory at this point. I believe the Hawkes companies had these made for about 40 years. 3-String Basses being offered still into the 1920s.... Go figure..
     
  5. Alex Scott

    Alex Scott

    May 8, 2002
    Austin, TX
    There is a bassist in town, Evan Arredondo, who has one similar I think to the one at Kolsteins, it looks pretty nice, I haven't heard it much, and only amplified with a underwood, so it sounded like a nice bass with low action through an underwood.

    Here is a link I found with him playing a few years back. If it doesn't work you can search for him.

    http://music.aol.com/artist/main.adp?artistid=52590&sem=1&ncid=AOLMUS00170000000007

    There is also a guy in Houston, an individual who I bought my first bass from who upgraded to a hawkes at that time. Let me know if you want to talk to him, I can try to get in touch with him.

    Why are you interested in the Hawkes? I might prefer a new Jackstadt for the value, maybe find a used one.

    You just looking for an orchestral bass for auditions?
     
  6. EFischer1

    EFischer1 Guest

    Mar 17, 2002
    New York, New York

    My Hawkes Panormo is from a French shop. Also, $21,500 sounds like a lot for a Concert model. JMHO.
     
  7. jvillarreal

    jvillarreal

    Oct 7, 2002
    Tulsa, OK
    EF: That price sounded a bit high for me, too. Though I guess you could justify it if it's had extensive repairs, neck resetting, new fingerboard, etc... I don't know if this one has. How do you like your Panormo model? {very curious}

    Alex: Definitely looking for an audition calibre bass, which as you know my bass isn't. :) I've played on a couple Jakstadt's and wasn't too impressed with the high end. For the price, I'd rather go for a new Pollmann, Kolstein or Gagnon which I think are pretty even in all registers. But, being a nostalgic-type, I'd like to have something old with some history behind it.
     
  8. KSB - Ken Smith

    KSB - Ken Smith Banned Commercial User

    Mar 1, 2002
    Perkasie, PA USA
    Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
    The Flatbacks are the Professor model mostly made in Germany and maybe but I am not sure, made in France a bit. The Round Backs are the Concert and Panormo model. I was led to believe the Panormo model is made in London and of the best woods of the 3.

    See here; http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2569.htm

    The letter 'H' is under the button on the Panormo. A letter 'F' is on the french models and the Rivere models are Miercourt style basses and do not look at all like the Panormo style. The contrabass shop has a few of these with the story to match. Read their site on the Quality and top quality sections. It's a real lesson in london shop basses.
     
  9. jvillarreal

    jvillarreal

    Oct 7, 2002
    Tulsa, OK
    While not being a luthier or a bass historian, I don't think it's a stretch to believe that some of the Panormo models were in fact made in France to meet demand. The Contrabass Shoppe website is a wonderful resource, but their information can also be approached at with a bit of skepticism since they do not provide any source material to back up their claims.

    ...just my 2 cents.

    Anyone know of a Double Bass label database? There are some great ones for violins.
     
  10. EFischer1

    EFischer1 Guest

    Mar 17, 2002
    New York, New York
    jvilla - I am really happy with my Panormo. Sometime in the 50's the shoulders were cut down so it is much easier to access the high register than most Hawkes'. What did you think of the Jaksted's? I have heard good things.

    Ken - mine does have the "F" under the button, but it is most certainly (this has been confirmed by numerous luthiers) a Panormo model. The story goes that as the demand for the Hawkes' basses became higher, they outsourced more and more to French and German shops. You are correct, the Panormo was their high-end model with the most choice wood. No one is really sure what the "F" means, but several luthiers have theorized that it designates the french basses.
     
  11. jvillarreal

    jvillarreal

    Oct 7, 2002
    Tulsa, OK
    EF: I saw your bass on Bob Gollihur's site. It's a bit out of my price range, but looked very interesting. Any particular reason you're getting rid of it?

    The Jakstadts I've played/heard have an enormous bottom end, walking a pretty fine line between power and clarity. The upper registers haven't always blown me away like the bottom end. Jakstadt's workmanship is top notch, though.

    GO SOX!!!
     
  12. EFischer1

    EFischer1 Guest

    Mar 17, 2002
    New York, New York
    I'm only half-way trying to get rid of it, I guess. It is a great bass, but one that I'll have to replace when I start taking auditions. So I just thought that I would put the word out a little and see what happened.

    I have been thinking maybe about looking at a contemporary instrument. They seem to require much less up-keep.
     
  13. KSB - Ken Smith

    KSB - Ken Smith Banned Commercial User

    Mar 1, 2002
    Perkasie, PA USA
    Owner: Ken Smith Basses, Ltd.
    Is this the Bass in question? http://netinstruments.com/a.php?a=31088

    Were the lower bouts cut as well? This is the only Hawkes I have ever seen that was cut down. Hard to see that is ever was a Hawkes. Some better detailed pics would be nice just to look at ans study the work that was done. Again, I think only the Basses with the perfled 'H' in the back were the actual 'panormo' models. The other round backs with the Concert series.. I think!

    The 'F' was a french shop and not the Rivere model which I think pre-dates the Panormo series Basses including the Concert and Professor models. Flatback=professor model and roundback=concert model. This is what I have learned over the last few years.

    Also, Fiorini working in Switzerland during wwI also used 'F' in the upper back button. http://www.kolstein.com/instruments/bass/b1522/b1522_2.jpg
     
  14. EFischer1

    EFischer1 Guest

    Mar 17, 2002
    New York, New York
    Again, It has been to 6 different luthiers for identification. All of whom, within moments of seeing it said that it was undoubtedly a Panormo. Yes, it has an "F". Yes, it is a Panormo model. Yes, that is my instrument. Yes, the shoulders were cut down. No, the lower bouts were not.

    Again, the bass in that picture (my instrument), is a Hawkes Panormo. cheers.
     
  15. Monte

    Monte

    Jan 9, 2001
    New Albany, MS

    I played Evan's bass at a jam session at the Elephant Room. Nice bass, but I couldn't tell much about its acoustic tone as he had SUPER low action and was experimenting with a magnetic pickup. He said he has had several offers from people to buy it. Heckuva nice guy, too.