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212 instead of 15?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Jacob Bartfield, Apr 1, 2002.


  1. I'm currently using an Ampeg SVT Pro II with an SWR Son of Bertha (115). I play a lot of blues, and moderately low volume stuff, so I figured the 15 would be a good choice. I thought that when I needed it, I could add either a 210 or a 410. But, now I'm feeling like I could use a little more definition in my sound. I'm considering replacing my SWR with a 212. That way I could have more punch, and I wouldn't even need another cabinet. I still like the bass response of the 15, so I'm not considering using 10s. It seems like 12s would be a nice compromise. Some of those 212 cabs are rated to take 600 watts, which would give me way more headroom than I have now. (My amp is 300 watts). I was just wondering what everyone thinks of this idea, and what 212 cabinets I should look at (hearing good things about Aguilar.) Thanks.
     
  2. There's a 2x12 shootout in Bassplayer March '02 Edition.. go read it :)
     
  3. brianrost

    brianrost Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 26, 2000
    Boston, Taxachusetts
    Jacob,

    I play in a blues band and use ONE Epifani 1-12. That replaced a 1-15" box with an EV in it. A typical 2-12 should work OK for you, but you might want to audition some 1-12 cabs as well.

    Keep in mind you can't judge speakers from looking at specs. you need to hear them. I just had the chance to gig with a Bergantino 1-12" for a week instead of my Epifani. Both are great cabs but they don't sound the same, though from the spec sheets you might expect them to.

    You need to get to a dealer that has the cabs you're interested in and check them out with your own ears.

    AllodoX,

    The BP shootout was of 1-12 cabinets, not 2-12.
     
  4. boogiebass

    boogiebass

    Aug 16, 2000
    For what I want to hear (clarity, punch and clean bottom), a 212 is better than a 15. I prefer the Epifani T212 over the Aguilar. Taste varies.
     
  5. Are you suggesting that I replace the 115 with a 112? The problem with that is, my amp puts out so much power that a 112 would definately not be enough. I'm barely getting away with the 115 as it is. Buy the way, you said that the Aguilar sounded different than the Epifani. In what way? Also, I read the shootout in Bass Player of the 112s over carefully. Although it gives a lot of information, I can't really apply it to 212s.
     
  6. SlimT

    SlimT

    Feb 27, 2002
    Eden Prairie, MN
    Jacob:

    I really like my 212. It actually has a better bass response than my 115 - I'm assuming because of the bigger cab? Mine is a Bergantino. I did compare it to an Epifani and liked the Bergie better. It's been long enough since buying it that I can't remember the differences. Both were great sounding cabs, though.

    I did compare the 112 to the 212. Obviously, the 212 sounded huge compared to the 112. However, I know there are players out there doing the stack of two 112s and loving it. That might be an option. I didn't get a chance to compare as there was only one 112 there when I was shopping.
     
  7. Andrew Jones

    Andrew Jones Banned

    Feb 28, 2001
    Northampton Mass
    Jacob

    Just to clear somethin up head room is defined by how much power is in reserve of you amp under use (like jumping in a basement the higher the ceiling the more "headroom").I asume a son of b is rated less than 600 watts so in theory you will have less head room because the cab can take more of the amps max persentage of power.

    600watts power (4ohm)->400watt cab(4ohm)

    is more "headroom" (200 watts spare when the cabs about to go)
    than
    400 watts power(4ohm)-> 400watt cab(4ohm)

    All that is theory cause I think your amp is 300 watts tube right? so its a little different cause when your amp is workin hard and it runs out of headroom it starts that grindy, comprestion thing wich sounds good any way.

    The bergantino 212 Kills I havent heard any one of the other newer ones (though I lived with a eden for four years)


    Hope this reads clear enough to get what Im saying

    AJ
     
  8. jerry

    jerry Doesn't know BDO Gold Supporting Member

    Dec 13, 1999
    Hawaii
    I think you should give the 1/12 a try........you might be surprised! I have the Bergie 2/12 and it rocks.....but it likes juice! The 1/12's they make these days are louder and have better frequency response than the 15's we used to use. just my two pennies...
     
  9. I guess I'm still confused about what you guys are suggesting. I suppose I would consider adding a 112 to my rig, but it couldn't serve as a stand alone could it? My amp is 300 watts. My answer may be to get a 212.
     
  10. Munjibunga

    Munjibunga Total Hyper-Elite Member Gold Supporting Member

    May 6, 2000
    San Diego (when not at Groom Lake)
    Independent Contractor to Bass San Diego
    A 212 would be a BIG mistake. It will not provide the definition you crave. Your original 410 idea was correct. Twelves and fifteens add mush. Tens add definition. Do not buy 12's until you have tried them against 10's. This is NOT an April fools joke. You will regret buying any 12's. I mean it.
     
  11. Andrew Jones

    Andrew Jones Banned

    Feb 28, 2001
    Northampton Mass
    Jacob

    Munjis got a point but I think he's stateing it a lil extreme. Just goes to show that every ones opinions on good tone is diferent.

    Untill I started school and found myself shleppin arount a rig in the same half mile radius with no car 6 times a day (no joke) and play alot of upright.I was very happy with a aguilar 359 and a eden 212 I played a hundred blues gigs a year for 2 years and a whole lotta original R+B/soul in clubs around boston for 2 years before that with a 212. I cant believe its the new fad but I understand why.

    I think youd be very happy with a 212 the bergantino kits butt, its got that old school vibe you probally after (blues band tube head) yet the tweeter is smooth and has a little zip. while its true it sounds clearer sittin under a 210 ilove the vibe of the cab. I havent tried any of the others (the eden is similar but not as good)

    I just bought a new rig its a walter woods ultra high power amp and 2 bergantino 112's and a aguilar DI that I use to warm up the sound a little.This rig put 1200 watts in to (2) 300 watt cabs (600watts) thats alot of headroom (the amp is only working at half power when it begins to over power the speakers so the power is more efortlless sounding ,more dinamic control at loud volumes.The last word I would decribe this rig as is "muddy" the berg 112 is very tight sounding cab. 2 of them very diferent from the 212. Munji you shou hear these you may not like them but Ill be shocked if you call them muddy.

    AJ
     
  12. brianrost

    brianrost Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 26, 2000
    Boston, Taxachusetts
    Nope, just saying that I get by just fine replacing a 1-15 with the Epifani 1-12 in a blues band. Therefore, a 2-12 should work fine for you.

    The 1-12 boxes from Bergantino, Epifani and Aqguilar are all rated 300 watts RMS, what your SVT puts out. The boxes can indeed take it.

    Are you saying you're not loud enough? If so, you definitely want more cone area, like a 2-12.

    No I said the Bergantino, I have never tried an Aguliar. The Berg has a tighter, more controlled low end and more prominenbt upper mids. This makes for a very focused and defined tone. The Epifani while not at all muddy sounds thicker to me (with all EQ the same), much better fit for a blues band. The Berg is perfect for a funk or jazz player.

    Munji,

    Taste in cabs is always going to be subjective. The size of the driver is simply not as important as the overall design of the speaker system. I have cabinets with 10" speakers that sound muddy as hell while the Bergantino 1-12" has tighter, snappier response than my SWR Baby Blue which uses 8" woofers. People need to use their ears more and get away from poring over spec sheets so much.

    While the 1-12 and 2-12 may seem to be the latest hype, they are hardly a new idea. I was gigging with a 1-12" EV loaded cabinet back in the 80s.
     
  13. bassmanjones

    bassmanjones

    Feb 23, 2002
    Boston, MA
    I think you should try out some 12's. The one thing that I hear and maybe others don't is that 12's are not 15's nor are they 10's. (pretty obvious huh :D) 12's have some of the punch from 10's and some of the bottom from 15's but it's truly its own speaker. It doesn't sound like either.
     
  14. My bad. Of course I meant Berg, not Aguilar. That's interesting what you say about the difference between the two cabs. Not that I've tried either brand before, everything I've read seems to say that Epifani's have a more high fi, modern, slap-friendly type sound. You're the first person I've heard that said it sounded thicker than a Bergantino. Well, everyone's ears are different, and I guess I'm gonna have to try some of these cabs myself. Too bad there are no local music stores that have any Berg, Epifani, Eden, Aguilar, or any other companies that make 12s.
     
  15. I just received my new EA CXL 112 last week. I am amazed by the amount of tight, even and thick sound coming out of it. I used my EA 208/110 combination or Eden 210 speakers before and this blows away both of them. I a/b'd the EA112 and Eden stuff and my observations are : The EA is louder. It is even all the way down to the B. It has a clarity the Eden just can't match. The Eden sounds muffled in comparison. I have heard some people say that EA is sterile. I don't find this at all. My 112 is really "thick" sounding. I think one of these cabs could handle most of my gigging needs. Two of them would blow away most of the 410's I have heard. If you can, check them out.
     
  16. brianrost

    brianrost Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 26, 2000
    Boston, Taxachusetts
    Jacob,

    You know, I took the Berg down to a blues jam where I usually bring my Epifani. I had three guys play through it and they told me it was "too bright" and "needed more bottom". So it wasn't just MY ears.

    I would agree that Epifani is "hi-fi, modern, slap-friendly" it's just that the Berg is even more so.
     
  17. KB

    KB

    Jan 13, 2000
    Chapel Hill, NC
    I own two Aguilar 1x12s and I always run them together through my 600W Carvin head. I used to have a 2x10 and 1x15 setup and the Aguilar stack blows it out of the water. It has more bass response and more punch than my older setup (probably because of being more efficient). I would describe the Aguilar sound as very "true" sounding. Not very vintage, but not over the top Hi-Fi either. I think it is a very even sound aross all frequency ranges as it doesn't really color the sound. I have heard it described as a cross between ampeg and Eden and I would probably agree with that. I think it has a decent low mid punch without being to honky. I was deciding between a 2x12 and two 1x12s and I went with the two 1x12s mainly because of portability, but I also get 2 tweeters (and I might add that the Aguilar tweeters are very good). Also if I am playing in a quiet setting (such as when we recorded our most recent CD) I just used one 1x12 and it worked great. I will say that a single 1x12 probably wouldn't cut it in a rock gig or at anything other than a very small venue, however two 1x12s blow my band out of the water and have no problems at all with volume, clarity and punch.
    But this is just my opinion and for reference, I have never played through Epifani or Berg. The Aggies were a lot cheaper too than those.

    -KB
     
  18. Larzito

    Larzito

    Aug 1, 2000
    Dallas, Texas
    I switched back to an Eden 410XLT after owning, liking an blowing an Eden 212. The Eden 12's have a thicker sound, with a sweeter midrange. But I blew both drivers, reconed them and traded. Its hard to beat the attack and edge a 410 has, but I crave more bottom and HATE lugging a 98 pound 410 around. I went to Larry Morgan Music to A/B various cabs against the Eden 410XLT, looking for a change. First, I tried a Bergantino 1-15. Not enough presence, punch or even low end (and I like Bergs alot). Then I started on the 12's. For those of you in the Dallas area, Larry Morgan is the deal. I compared stacks of two 1-12 cabs from Aguilar, Bergantino and Epifani. I ruled the Bergies out fast as they had less booty and some strange peaks that I was surprised and annoyed to find. The Epi was my choice over the Ag. Although you couldn't go wrong with the Ag, it has the harsh tweeter syndrome that a lot of us ex-slappers are tired of. But the Ag has a very familiar sound (a bit scooped in the mids) that draws you in, and has the attack more like the Eden. But the Epi seemed to have a rich, smooth character that pleased me that day. I'm gonna try to borrow both the Ag and the Epi stacks overnight for a band practice to see which one sounds better in a band situation. I'll keep you posted. But to anser the original question, either two 1-12 cabs or a single 2-12 cab would be an inprovement over a single 1-15. More low end, more presence.
     
  19. Yipes! Munji-Chicken Little! :p In my experiance...12's will would be exactly what you'd want for adding definition. My Eden 2x12's had a very wide bottom, with a whack o' punch and focus. I have been a proponent of 12's for the last three years. I have since upgraded to MM HD-212's for the added headroom and "throatier" mid thang but would suggest that you totally check them out. Warm growly mids, meat...less "boom" perhaps? At the very least, a 2x12 will give you more versatility than a single 15". I have had the best of luck with my 2x12's...there are so many new ones out there so go try 'em. 4x10's are a dying breed. There's a "troll" if I ever heard one!

    [​IMG]
     
  20. The point about comparing 10s to 12s is well made. Engineering-wise, most 10" drivers have a higher ratio of motor strength (Bl) to cone weight (Mms), which can provide tighter control over cone motion. The lesser mass of the 10" cone plus air load allows them to accelerate and decelerate faster than a larger, heavier cone and air load.

    I have to disagree with the blanket statement of 12s and 15s adding mush. There are crappy 10s out there just as much as crappy 15s. Not every large driver is a dog. For example, the JBL 2245 can crush a 4x10 in the low end, and still have tight bass. And there are the Carvin 10" drivers...

    The cabinet tuning is a significant factor for mush. Vented cabs introduce significant group delays where different frequencies arrive at different times. This is heard as "slow" or "mush". A sealed cab is far superior to a vented box for reducing group delay. The tradeoff is less efficiency and less low frequency extension.

    Group delay rises rapidly near the cabinet tuning and continues a steep rise below this point. If your cab is tuned at 50 Hz, everything from slightly higher than 50 Hz and down is going to have very high group delays. If your driver is optimum in a cab tuned at 23 Hz, group delay is not a problem even for a 5-string.

    Audition both and compare them side by side. Decide with your ears.