215....118.....is one better than the other?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by MJ5150, Aug 5, 2003.

  1. 1x18

    1 vote(s)
    3.8%
  2. 2x15

    25 vote(s)
    96.2%
  1. Benjamin Strange

    Benjamin Strange Commercial User

    Dec 25, 2002
    New Orleans, LA
    Owner / Tech: Strange Guitarworks
    Let me make a suggestion: unless your band plays stupid loud, maybe you should look at a single 15 plus the 2x10. This is a real popular combination, because it gives you a full range sound plus is easy to transport. I've been using this setup for years, and it's been loud enough for just about any situation. I've found that a single 15 works well for smaller gigs, too.

    It just seems that TB has a thing for excessively big rigs, yet nobody seems happy about carrying them. Maybe it's time for all of us to switch to playing the flute.
     
  2. He asked about using the 3500 with a 15 and a 410.

    You will get equal sound being pushed into both cabs. There will NOT be any splitting between the signal pushing the lows to the 15 and the highs to the 410. Despite that, it's a pretty flexible rig either way. That's what I'm doing right now, and while I'm not biamping, the 15 is producing the lows I can feel while the 410 is rounding out the tone. Biamping is an excellent way to send lows into a cab that can't handle highs and highs into a cab that can't handle lows. But if you'r adding a 410 to a 15 that doesnt handle highs, the sound will be compromised. If you're using both cabs and the 410 doesnt handle lows, you NEED TO BIAMP. But that should NOT be an issue with a quality 410 bass cabinet. My 410 Peavey TX delivers excellent lows by itself. The tweeter in that cab adds a lot of highs that i dig.
     
  3. DEVILMAN

    DEVILMAN

    Nov 24, 2001
    New York,NY
    BruceWane,

    Kudos to someone that hits the nail right on the head!

    Everything you speak of is everything I've gone through for 20yrs myself!

    It's good to actually see someone else here has real world proof/experience to their findings.

    Bruce for president!!!


    later,
    ~S~
     
  4. Bruce, whatever, OK. What's your explanation for the sub in your car then because you won't accept what I have to say and really think that you are wrong about what you have to say about my explanation. You do know what you're talking about on all of the other stuff but 18's need that big space. When you're really close, sure you can hear the speaker prouducing the bass, and the other stuff you talked about, but does it even sound good? It sounds a lot better from further away. I can't even see how people got that "room to develop myth" started from a horn.

    Thanks for what you have to say about me. It really shows your maturity. You really sound like one of those grumpy old men. Nice ego, even if you have the experience to back up some of your bogus claims. You just basically said I was wrong and nothing more, no facts, other supporting factors, nothing.

     
  5. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Moderator Staff Member

    Apr 12, 2001
    Olympia, WA
    Alright fellas....calm down now.

    basstriaxis.....I like your suggestion. I originally wanted to downsize my rig, and make it easy to carry around. As soon as I started looking around the forum, I kept reading about these guys with huge rigs, and now I want one.

    The fact of the matter is that the band I am in plays a live gig about once every three months. Those gigs are normally in someones garage, or back deck. We all have aspirations of playing clubs, but I don't think that will happen. Even if I did play a club, I would most likely be subject to the clubs PA. The one time we played a real gig, I was told to only bring my amp as I would be running through the provided PA. I brought my 215 anyway cuz I didn't wanna look like a dork just carrying an amp.

    I think I have to stick with my 215. Noone wants to buy it from me, and I am used to the monstrous sound. I thought about buying a 210 or 410, and a dual channel amp. That way I could play both cabs if I wanted to.

    The Avatar 210s seem to get high ratings. Are these any good, or am I stuck in the "they can't be that good because they aren't expensive" rut?

    You know that perception that exists about expensive gear=best, cheaper gear=crap.
     
  6. Bruce, if you want to tell me I'm wrong actually tell me why. Don't aim for my leg and watch me limp around. Gun me down so I know that what you're talking about is 100% true and give you the respect that you ultimantly diserve. Otherwise, don't be acting so cocky. Really sorry if I made you mad but I think we understand eachother now.

    MJ5150, the 210 is really good. Don't believe that because they're cheaper that they suck. You're actually getting a good deal on it. Avatar probably isn't making that much money off of them at all and the retail is twice that of the selling price. And once you have that you can add a 15 or a 212 or something once you have a little more money or something. But a 212 and 18's really doesn't work. The split between what the different cabs tonal capabilities is is just too weird. Normally people would get a 410 with a 15 or an 18 or 2 of the 212 cabs.
     
  7. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Moderator Staff Member

    Apr 12, 2001
    Olympia, WA
    Alright then. I am following ya.

    What about this combo then.....215, and a Hartke 4.5, which is a 410 cab.

    At this moment, I can not run both cabs at once, but if I get a dual channel amp I can.
     
  8. Well, can you tell me what you currently have and tell me what kind of overall sound you want?
     
  9. BruceWane

    BruceWane

    Oct 31, 2002
    Houston, TX
    Pal, it would take an awful lot of my time and an awful lot of space on this site to explain the physics of sound reproduction via voice coil driven diaphragm to you. The only issue that relates to the size of the device producing a sound wave versus the size of the physical wavelength is that of directivity, which is not what you're talking about; otherwise the size of the device has no bearing on the audibility of sound.

    To put it plainly, there is nothing that makes sound inaudible near it's source. Not the wattage level, not the size of the speaker. Sound does not need room to develop. You do not need to be a certain distance from a sound source, regardless of it's size or power, in order to hear a sound wave. Your ears do not percieve sound in complete waves; they sense the minute changes in air pressure as the wave passes you. Clear enough?

    Certainly there are situations where a subwoofer is fairly quiet up close and louder out in the room. This is known as "room gain" (also known as "cabin gain" in the car audio world) and has no relationship whatsoever to the size of the speaker. It is the interaction of the acoustics of the room with a particular frequency range. The device producing that frequency is not relevant. A 12" sub will have the same characteristics as an 18" in the same frequency range, in the same room. If a room is boomy at 38Hz, it makes no difference if the device producing that frequency is 8" or 28" in diameter, the room is still gonna be boomy at 38Hz. OK?
     
  10. Yes Bruce. You just used different terms to describe what I was saying and agree with a lot of it. With most of the stuff I kind of went "duh". But you still haven't really cleared up the headphone thing. I have headphones that go froma 5hz-30khz and they produce the bass as well as the treble. It's just the way they're enginered. The relation of the size and wattage must have something to do with it. Headphones are really small and only have about 1 watt max going through them. So they are never loud and that alows you to hear it so clearly at such a short distance. But at the best performance level of a 215 a person wouldn't be halph an inch away from it. They would easily be 20 feet or more away from it. So there must be some relation to all of that stuff.
     
  11. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Moderator Staff Member

    Apr 12, 2001
    Olympia, WA
    OK...here is my deal:
    Hartke HA3500 Head 240watts @ 8ohms, 350watts @ 4ohms
    215 cab with Peavey Black Widows 400watts
    Ibanez BTB405...fretless, with Dean Markeley flatwounds.

    I have been playing this cab for about two years. I like the fact that it is loud as hell, and scares people who stand too close to it. But I am missing the "punch" in my sound. Maybe it is because I am fretless. Maybe it is because I have strings that are very "dead", dull sounding. I was told that by another bass player. I figured the best way to make it better was to add an 810, or a 410 cab. I think I can get more bang for my buck by going with a 410, and a dual channel amp instead of the 810. Although I found a Peavey 810 on eBay for $375 Buy It Now. Too far from me tho. :(

    I do not know how to slap or pop real well, but we play a few Green Day songs that I need that high punchy sound. I would like to get better at it as well. We play Incubus, 3 Doors Down, Lit, Staind, Candlebox, you get the idea. I love the xtreme lows I get from this 215, it is awesome to me. But I want to be able to have a cool, bright punchy sound as well. Maybe I should buy a fretted bass?

    There ya go...my bass life in a nutshell. Advise away. :)
     
  12. Yeh, sometimes the sound isn't split up evenly with just a single 215 or even 15. The 15's are trying to compensate for the tones that they really can't produce well. So add a 410 to better even out the sound. With that you should get much more punch out of the 215 and the 410 will easily take on the job of all of those frequencies that are mudding up the 215. The fretlesses usually sound really smooth but still have those hi's. And something else, I have had an Ibanez BTB 515, the one with the mahogany body (the only difference) and I really thought that it sucked. The hi precence neck pickup and the penetrating bridge pickup, along with the eq that looked amazing but is really set up wrong, gives it a flat cruddy tone that is missing something. I also think something was just designed wrong on the bass because of the hight of the neck compared to the hight of the bridge and pickups.

    So maybe you may need to get a different bass, and add the 410. Does your hartke have 2 outputs though? Because if it does you just might want to add a power amp in the future for more power. Or you may want to get on of the Hartke 7000 or 5000 bass heads that have the crossover funtion to even better seperate the different tones of the cabs. Do you have the money to do this though?
     
  13. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Moderator Staff Member

    Apr 12, 2001
    Olympia, WA
    I am not a wizard when it comes to amps, but I can tell you what is on the back of my 3500. I have two speaker outputs, a direct out, and an effects loop.

    That would be SWEET if I could just add a power amp to this 3500 and use it as a pre-amp. Maybe I could even use a bass pod for a pre-amp to a power amp. Could I just add a power amp to this 3500 and use it as a pre-amp? If not, I suppose I will have to get a two channel amp, or something like the Firebass from Peavey, it has a crossover and runs down to 2ohms.

    If I CAN add a power amp to this, there is a Crown CE4000 for $275 at a pawn shop where I live. It works fine. Then I could run two cabs no problem!! SWEET!!
     
  14. Stu L.

    Stu L.

    Nov 27, 2001
    Corsicana, Texas
    Sorry bub, the Firebass' crossover outs are non powered. Meaning, you'd still need a power amp. Now, you could run of the two signals (high or low) back into the Firebass, but you would need that 2nd amp for the other signal.
     
  15. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Moderator Staff Member

    Apr 12, 2001
    Olympia, WA
    OK....the crossover isn't powered. I was not aware that it had to be. The Firebass puts out 700 watts at 2ohms, so why would the crossover need to be powered? I though it was just a knob that adjusted how much of each signal went to each speaker output.
     
  16. BruceWane

    BruceWane

    Oct 31, 2002
    Houston, TX
    Yep, you can add a power amp to it. Run a cable from your effects send to the input of the power amp. Or you can use the direct out as well. There are possible drawbacks to both methods, though minor; using your effects send means you can't use your effects loop for effects, if you have any. And using your direct out means you can't use it to go direct to a mixing board in a live setting. Depends on what you want to give up. Most direct outs that are built in to amps are not very good quality, so more than likely when you play live, the sound engineer is gonna hook you up to the board using his own direct box anyway, so using your direct out is probably a safe bet.

    You will still be able to use your amp to drive speakers as well. But you do not have the means to actually bi-amp - you have no crossover to split the high frequencies from the low.
     
  17. if that 215 is a hartke, it's 4 ohms. A hartke 410 cab is 8 ohms
    that wouldn't be a good idea
     
  18. ok,. sorry, black widdows gotcha:D
     
  19. BruceWane

    BruceWane

    Oct 31, 2002
    Houston, TX
    By the way, $275 for a Crown CE4000 is a SERIOUSLY good deal. I'd jump on that IMMEDIATELY. Those go for around $1200 new. And they put out serious power - 2800 watts at 4 ohms bridged. You'd definitely have no need for more power under any circumstances short of playing Giants Stadium.
     
  20. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Moderator Staff Member

    Apr 12, 2001
    Olympia, WA
    bassist31588.........The 215 is a Yamaha cab, with Black Widows in it. It is a 4ohm cab. The Hartke 4.5XL is 8ohms.

    I was going to get a power amp, and hook each cab up to a different channel. Since one is 4ohm, and the other 8ohm is that bad? I thought it owuld not matter since each cab was on a different channel.

    BruceWane.....I use no effects, so I would connect it to the effects send. I am going to buy a bass pod, but that is for recording and home use only.