215....118.....is one better than the other?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by MJ5150, Aug 5, 2003.

  1. 1x18

    1 vote(s)
    3.8%
  2. 2x15

    25 vote(s)
    96.2%
  1. If you're using the bass pod for recording then don't get it. Actually get something that is supposed to be used for recording. The bass pod is a very bad investement. I thought you had a hartke bass head? Not a firebird unless you were planning to replace the hartke with the firebird. Replace the head then if you really want to but the only thing the power amp would give you is more power, no extra crossover stuff unless it has it built in it. I don't know if you'd get any power from the hartke but I think you would. Get the Crown power amp but make sure you don't push the volume too loud or there's going to be a lot of broken speakers. Do you like your bass though? And, do you have the money to do all of this? It's a lot of replacing and the only thing I see you keeping is the 215.
     
  2. Find a head with 2 ohms maximum independence. Then make sure you get a 410 that is at 4 ohms to pair with the 4 ohm 215. That should give you a nice sound. Because it does not appear that there will be any crossover biamping stuff there may be a slight problem but I think that the signal frequencies will naturaly find it's way into either the 215 and 410. I've found that when using different sized speakers that the low frequencies naturally round themselves to the 15 or 12 and the high's go to the 10's with the horn.

    I would greatly consider getting the Hartke 5000 or 7000 head because they both have the nice crossover, great other controls, tube and solid state preamp mix, and all the power I think you need for right now. If not buy that crown right now and use that when you need it.

    And, if anything the peavey cabs really look to be cheap. I wouldn't get one. The msrp for the "proffesional" 15 is only 360 and they're selling it for 300. The Avatar stuff has better speakers (eminence, the #1 best speaker company) and the msrp for a 15 is 650 without the tweeter and he's selling it for only 239+42 shipping. Now really, which one sounds like a better deal?

    I would definently get the Avatar 410 over a Peavey 410 if your'e going to get a 410. The Avatar comes in either a 4 or 8 ohm.
     
  3. BruceWane

    BruceWane

    Oct 31, 2002
    Houston, TX
    OK...headphones can do what they do because they are not required to get very loud. There is a basic rule in speaker design that very neatly sums up a lot of complicated physics having to do with sound reproduction. There are three basic aspects to a speaker when you are dealing with low frequencies. It's size, how low a frequency it can reproduce, and how loud it can do it. Bear in mind that size refers to the speaker cabinet, not just the driver itself.

    The basic rule in speaker cabinets is this - loud, low, or small.......you can only have any two. You can have small speakers that go low, but they will not be very loud. This is the case with headphones and car audio subwoofers. They are small and go low, but they cannot get very loud. I know car audio subs seem loud, but you have to understand that they use the interior space of the car as a cabinet of sorts - this is the term "cabin gain" I mentioned before. When you take a sub out of a car and crank it up, it's not really very loud. There's a few people here that use car audio subs in their bass rigs, and they will tell you that you have to be very selective about finding one that has the lows you want and is still just efficient enough to be useful. They use a LOT of wattage to drive them, and even so they just barely get loud enough to use in a live band setting. So effectively the car audio sub gets really loud by using a cabinet the size of your cars interior - not small at all.

    You can have small speakers that get loud, but not very low. This is the route that most cabinets built for bass guitar take. In order for a cab to be useful in a live band setting, it absolutely must get loud enough to cut it against a drummer and a guitarist. Hopefully you get to play with folks that are willing to play at less than ear-bleeding levels, but that seems to be the exception, not the norm. Also, the cab has to be of a size that isn't impossible to transport. So the manufacturers build what sells. Cabinets that won't fit in an average hatchback are not real big sellers.

    And finally, you can have speakers that get quite loud and go very low, but they will be big. VERY big. Like refrigerator big. Consider the typical subwoofer setup that a tour like Lollapalooza uses.....on a tour like that, it's typical to be running 40 or more 2x18 cabs, each cab is 18 to 20 cubic feet, and each cab gets hit with 2000 plus watts. When somebody like the Metallica rolls through, you can bet that their PA is pushing MINIMUM 300,000 watts total - and that does not include the stage monitor system.

    The only part that the distance of the listener from the speaker plays is how much volume is necessary. Sound usally dissipates at about 1db every 10 feet. If your trying to produce 105db at the back of a bar that is 50 feet deep, you'll need to produce 110db at the source. A PA for a stadium gig often needs to hit 130db at the source in order to rattle the back rows. If you're very close, you don't need as much volume.

    Does this help?
     
  4. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Moderator Staff Member

    Apr 12, 2001
    Olympia, WA
    BruceWane......to steal a line from Magneto: "You are a god among insects".

    I thank you for bestowing your wisdom upon me. If you EVER make it to Seattle, let me know and I owe ya dinner. :)

    I thought I had this all figured out...Keep my 215 4ohm cab, add a 410 cab, a new dual channel power amp then plug in and play. Using the Hartke3500 to serve as a pre-amp. That way I could run two cabs at oen time no matter the ohm rating. I guess that ain't gonna work now.

    All of this talk has got me frustrated now. I am not sure what to do. Now I am ready to pick up a little 210 combo, and plug into a PA when I need to be loud. Maybe snag a 115 later to add to it. What do you think of that?
     
  5. Peavey also offers 410's and 15's in either 4 0r 8 ohm. I personally would (and did) choose the Peavey 410 over Avatar. Why? The Peavey can be used by itself and still dish out plenty of bottom end. I doubt the Avatar 410 would be a good stand alone cabinet if low end is important.
     
  6. BruceWane

    BruceWane

    Oct 31, 2002
    Houston, TX


    That would work. You can run two different loads on the two channels of a stereo power amp like that CE4000. 8 ohms on one side, 4 on the other, no problem. And you can use the Hartke as a preamp for the poweramp. You can even still use the power section of the Hartke and have 3 independent channels in that set up.

    That's not a bad idea either if it serves your purposes. Portability is a good thing. But, there may be (probably will be) situations where the PA is barely adequate for vocals, much less bass, and, sooner or later, I can pretty much guarantee that you will find yourself playing with a drummer who just loves to beat the life out of his kit. Or a guitarist who thinks his amp won't work below 11.

    If I were you, I absolutely would not pass up that Crown CE4000. If it's in working order, $275 is a stupid good deal. If nothing else I'd buy it and put it up on e-bay - you should get at least $600 for it.

    I'd get an Avatar 2x10 for $229. Then I'd get a used crossover locally or off of e-bay for $80 or so. Try to get dbx, Rane, or Ashley. Try to avoid Behringer. And keep the 2x15. This way you could take just the 2x10 and the Hartke if it's a low volume gig. Bring the power amp if you need to push it a little harder, but your only gonna get so much volume out of the 2x10 if you're asking it to do the low notes. When you need it or just want it, bring the whole thing and use the crossover to run the highs to one side of the Crown to drive the 2x10, lows to the other side to drive the 2x15.

    I would at least try the 2x15 in a bi-amp rig to see what it'll do when it's fed just lows at sufficient wattage. You may be surprised.

    This way you'll have whatever you need whenever you need it, and you won't have to tote more than necessary.

    You'll be all set - until some evil person turns you on to Aguilar, or Bergantino, or Epifani....... and the dreaded Gear Acquisition Syndrome sets in........or maybe you'll fall victim to bass addiction.....Sadowsky.....Modulus......Fodera......Conklin (check out JT - he's got it bad man!).......the list never ends........:bassist:
     
  7. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Moderator Staff Member

    Apr 12, 2001
    Olympia, WA
    nickelseye.....in our band, the low end is very important. We play covers of current rock, but for some reason everyone else in the band wants my bass up loud.

    Bruce.....Ok, so my idea will work then. Excellent!! I am gonna buy that Crown tomorrow, and figure out your suggestions for the crossover. It sounds complicated, but I think my local music store can help me out with the one I need.

    Dang, you got that right about a crazy drummer. The guy I play with will not stop. Like most, he is mad at the world. The guitar player is actually cool about volume, but he cranks it up when he can. He is 12 years younger than me so I only have to give him the evil eye and he turns it back down. :)

    So, you think it is better to get a 210, not a 410 then? I have a deal for a Hartke 4.5XL, and an Ibanez BTB405 for $450. I was gonna use the BTB as trade bait on the power amp and keep the 410. You think I would be better off playing a 210 along with the 215? Those Avatar cabs are regarded highly around here, maybe I should get one. I can drive to pick that up from the factory.

    I think I am a few years out until I get bass addiction. I am not that good of a bass player, and my ears aren't trained enough to appreciate the high-end, spendy basses. I am pretty happy with my BTB405 right now. As far as spendy cabs go, I am concerned. No music store around me has the really nice cabs. One shop has an Eden 410, a Workingmans 410, and a couple Mesa 410s all used. I am not even going to try them until I can support that potential habit. Then again, I am not good enough to prolly appreciate the ultra-superior quality.
     
  8. BruceWane

    BruceWane

    Oct 31, 2002
    Houston, TX
    I suggested the 2x10 because it is more portable for those smaller gigs, and with the 2x15 still available if you need it, you'll be able to cover the bigger gigs as well. A 4x10 would certainly work, but it's kinda overkill for a biamp rig. When you're not sending anything above 80~100Hz to a 2x10, it will get plenty loud.

    If you've got a good deal lined up on a 4x10, and it sounds like you do, there's no reason to pass on it. It'll be a bit more weight to carry than is absolutely necessary, but if you're OK with that, go for it. You did say your 2x15 is a Hartke also, didn't you?. It'd be kinda nice to have a nice, matched, all Hartke stack.

    You'll want to be extra careful with that much wattage available pushing those Hartkes, though. I don't have any experience using them, but I have heard they can be a bit delicate, and you'll certainly have the power on hand to push those cones into next week. Just keep your ears open for any distortion whatsoever, and resist the urge to bump up your volume during a gig when you may not be able to hear signs of distress from your speakers. Just work with it ahead of time and know the limits of the rig and just how high you can safely turn the knobs.
     
  9. Stu L.

    Stu L.

    Nov 27, 2001
    Corsicana, Texas
    Um, sorry buy your wrong. The Peavey Pro115 Lists at $799.99, MAP is $599.99. The regular, run of the mill Peavey 115 is $369.99, MAP of $299.99. And lastly, the Peavey 4x10 is available in 4 or 8 ohms.
     
  10. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Moderator Staff Member

    Apr 12, 2001
    Olympia, WA
    Bruce.....the 215 is a Yamaha cab, with Black Widows in it.

    Here is what my final setup will be then:
    Hartke3500 head
    Crown CE4000
    215 Black Widow Cab
    Hartke 4.5XL

    The most power I will send to the Hartke cab is 240 watts. How? I was gonna run the highs into the 4.5 with the Hartke by turning down the lows in the head and setting the highs to a desired level, then power the 215's with the Crown. The Hartke is rated at 240 watts at 8ohm. It seems like I have way more power than I need, so I am gonna try to trade the Crown and Hartke in for a dual channel bass amp, or something like the Pevey Firebass, it has a crossover. and 700 watts at 2ohms. I really do not want extra things to plug in, if I can score a bass amp that will allow both cabs to run efficiently at one time, I will be oh so happy. :)

    Does anyone have a Firebass for sale??
     
  11. Stu L.

    Stu L.

    Nov 27, 2001
    Corsicana, Texas
    I still don't see the Firebass as your answer. Yes, it has a crossover, but you still need a way to power it (the Crest for example)
     
  12. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Moderator Staff Member

    Apr 12, 2001
    Olympia, WA
    stubi.....You have me confused about the Firebass now. Are you saying that a crossover needs to be powered? I am assuming that the crossover in the Firebass translates the signal after it has been powered. It would seem to me that the Firebass will put out 700 watts at 2ohms, then I have a knob on the unit that will allow me to dictate, to a degree, where the highs and lows within that 700 watts go.

    Am I wrong?????

    "Have I run too far to get home?"
     
  13. SlavaF

    SlavaF

    Jul 31, 2002
    Edmonton AB



    I thought the Firebass was an amp - had its own power...:confused:
     
  14. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Moderator Staff Member

    Apr 12, 2001
    Olympia, WA
    The Peavey Firebass is a bass amp. It is rated at 700 watts at 2ohms. It has a built in crossover. It seemed like the perfect solution for me, but according to stubi, it is not. I am now confused.
     
  15. BruceWane

    BruceWane

    Oct 31, 2002
    Houston, TX
    OK....the Firebass 700 does not have two separate channels. It is a single channel amp. It does have a crossover. Here's you would use this head to bi-amp.....There are outputs on the back for high frequencies and low frequencies. You take a short cable and patch from the high output (or low output, your choice) to the power amp input jack on the back of the amp. Then you take another cable and run it from the low output to another power amp of some type. The firebass head cannot biamp by itself. It requires another power amp for the second channel.
     
  16. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Moderator Staff Member

    Apr 12, 2001
    Olympia, WA
    Dangit!!

    I thought I could run both cabs off the Firebass by itself. Dang, dang, dang!

    Well, I ain't gettin a Firebass then. I guess that Crown is the way to go then.
     
  17. BruceWane

    BruceWane

    Oct 31, 2002
    Houston, TX
    Yeah, I'd say so. Maybe trade that Hartke amp in on a nice preamp sometime down the road....
     
  18. MJ5150

    MJ5150 Moderator Staff Member

    Apr 12, 2001
    Olympia, WA
    Yeah, that is what I am gonna do. Buy the Crown, use the Hartke as a pre-amp for now.

    OK, so another question. When I go to buy a bass pre-amp, will I need to buy a crossover then also?

    What pre-amp is good? I do not need the ultra-hi quality one, but I don't some piece of garbage either.
     
  19. The Peavey Max is decent. It has 2 channels and a built in crossover. It retails for around $330, used maybe 150-250. The Sansamp RBI is another one that's reasonably priced, no internal crossover though.

    Also, I have a Peavey bassist preamp that I might sell. That also has a built in crossover and a compressor.
     
  20. BruceWane

    BruceWane

    Oct 31, 2002
    Houston, TX
    Yeah, what he said.........some preamps have a built in crossover, some don't.

    Lotsa good preamps out there.........you oughta stick with what you've got for the moment and think about what sound you'd like to get before you go preamp shopping. If you want to keep things cheap and functional, look for a used Yamaha PB-1 - very flexible, decent sound, built in crossover, footswitchable parametric eq, you can get them used around $100-$150 because they're getting kinda old now (they've been out of production a good while). If you like the Ampeg sound, get a SVP-Pro. Bass Player had a preamp shootout a few years ago that had a lot of good info about the strengths and weaknesses of just about every preamp out there. See if you can get a back issue.