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3 GK Neo 12's not loud enough. Something is off here.

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Systolic, Dec 6, 2018 at 10:28 AM.


  1. Systolic

    Systolic Supporting Member

    Nov 29, 2009
    Madison,Wisconsin
    Having some volume issues here....as in I don't have enough. Yes our "stage" volume is too high often, but it's not unreasonable. Yes, we have two guitarists, but they don't get terribly out of hand. I feel like I should be able to bury them with my set up if need be, but it's just not there.

    +Running a mint condition Yamaha PB1 preamp (Fender tone stock, kept at approx B: 2 M: 10, T:1)

    + Into a Crown XLS 2002 in Y input mode.

    + Into a GK Neo 2x12 ("rated" at 600w @8,) and a GK Neo 1x12 ("rated" at 300w @8.) Each channel controls it's own cab, so I can choose to back off the 112 if need be.

    +Amp puts out 375W at 8ohm per channel.

    Anything past 3 on the preamp's volume has the power amp flashing the red clip and thermal lights at me, and the cabs don't seem to be breaking a sweat, yet I BARELY have enough volume to keep up. Regardless of the slight power differences, I feel like should have enough wattage/speaker area with this setup to bury everybody if needed.

    I'm kinda at a loss. Thoughts?
     
    Pbassmanca likes this.
  2. Systolic

    Systolic Supporting Member

    Nov 29, 2009
    Madison,Wisconsin
    FWIW I've tried both input sensitivity settings on Crown. No difference.
     
  3. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    Have you verified that all of the cabinets are OPERATING in phase... that means every component within the signal chain (including verifying both channel's polarity on the amp's input processing)?
     
  4. Scottgun

    Scottgun

    Jan 24, 2004
    South Carolina
    Are you scooping the EQ?
     
    Turbo Sparky likes this.
  5. Systolic

    Systolic Supporting Member

    Nov 29, 2009
    Madison,Wisconsin
    I've not...mostly because I don't know the correct way to go about doing that, but I'm more than happy to learn.
     
    Pbassmanca likes this.
  6. Systolic

    Systolic Supporting Member

    Nov 29, 2009
    Madison,Wisconsin
    No. The PB1 uses a Fender tone stack eq where Bass at 1, Mids at 10, and Treble at 0 or 1 is nearly flat-ish, and that's where I have it set. The PB1 also has a separate parametric mid setting where I have a slight boost to my low mids. I also have a an Empress ParaEq in front of all this where i'm effectively running an HPF at approx 40hz, bumping my high mids a touch, and leaving treble flat.

    Also play Warwick basses which tend to be fairly "mid-y" on their own.
     
    AlexanderB likes this.
  7. Systolic

    Systolic Supporting Member

    Nov 29, 2009
    Madison,Wisconsin
    FWIW my tone doesn't "sound" out of phase from the descriptions I've read. I have a full rich tone with plenty of bottom and mids.
     
  8. BogeyBass

    BogeyBass

    Sep 14, 2010
    If both speakers are in phase.

    I'm curious if there is still some inversion
    In the signal chain.

    With so many outboard EQs being used is one cab not getting the full chain compared to the other somehow?

    If your getting clipping lights very early in the game. Seems the input sensitivity is very high
     
    Pbassmanca likes this.
  9. Mo'Phat

    Mo'Phat Supporting Member

    Oct 1, 2003
    San Diego, CA, USA
    I would suggest to go from the PB1 to mono input on the crown, then bridge the output and daisy-chain your cabs....4 ohm load.

    Just try it out first.

    Not sure why you're clipping the crown input at 3 in the PB1 - there could be something there.

    The Y-input might be the culprit. Y cable splitters are generally a bad idea....better to go mono
     
  10. Wasnex

    Wasnex

    Dec 25, 2011

    In order for each 12' driver to get equal power, the 212 needs to be run 3dB hotter than the 112. I don't have any idea what the mechanical power handling of these cabs is, but the 212 is spec'ed for 600W continuous and 1200W peak at 8 ohms. Since your amp only puts out 375W into 8 ohms you probably need a bit more power to extract maximum performance from the 212. IMHO 375 is probably more than enough for the 112.

    Your amp will bridge to 1,300W at 8 ohms. I'm sure this is enough power to push the 212 well beyond it's mechanical power handling limits, but you might try a controlled experiment to see how the cab responds to a bit more juice. That way you get some perspective on what to do next.

    I would shoot for feeding the 212 about 600W peak and then monitor for over excursion problems in the low end. Consider using a HPF set in the high 40Hz range. F3 is 53Hz for the 212 and 51 Hz for the 112, so you don't want to feed them a lot of power much below 50Hz.

    IMHO your best solution would probably be to buy a second 212, and bridge the amp for 2,100W at 4 ohms...then operate with discipline and discretion to avoid destroying the speakers.

    I believe the XLS 2002 has built in HPF and Peak Limiters available in the DSP. If this is the case, you can tailor the amp's performance to the speaker's limits.
     
  11. Systolic

    Systolic Supporting Member

    Nov 29, 2009
    Madison,Wisconsin
    Well the clipping is really at the end of the game, is it not? The preamp is clipping the power amp. I've no way to reduce or pad that signal other than to lower the volume knob, which seems counterproductive.
     
  12. Systolic

    Systolic Supporting Member

    Nov 29, 2009
    Madison,Wisconsin
    Well there's no Y cable at all. The "Input-Y" mode on the crown is meant to take a single input signal and send it to both amps and then out through the two speakon outputs. Traditionally used for a sub and pa setup, but is equally applicable here.
     
    ctmullins, Mo'Phat and AlexanderB like this.
  13. Wasnex

    Wasnex

    Dec 25, 2011
    No Y cable is required. From the manual, "The INPUT-Y mode directs the input signal form Channel 1 to both amplifier output channels." Pretty sure this is how the OP has the system configured.
     
    ctmullins likes this.
  14. JACink

    JACink

    Mar 9, 2011
    Spain
    As @agedhorse said, I would make sure that the cabs are in phase with each other. If you run just the 212 does it seem louder than running both cabs?
     
  15. Systolic

    Systolic Supporting Member

    Nov 29, 2009
    Madison,Wisconsin
    I have tried just running each cab individually. Same issue.
     
  16. Wasnex

    Wasnex

    Dec 25, 2011

    If you want to run the preamp output at a higher level, set the amp sensitivity to 1.4V and adjust the front panel level controls on the power amp to further tailor the sensitivity. These level controls are attenuators. Often it is desirable dial down the input sensitivity of the amp for a better signal to noise ratio.
     
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  17. Wasnex

    Wasnex

    Dec 25, 2011
    The problem here is the power will not be equally distributed to the three 12' drivers. It would be very easy to destroy the 112 since it will get twice as much power as each driver in the 212.
     
    Pbassmanca, eee and InhumanResource like this.
  18. Systolic

    Systolic Supporting Member

    Nov 29, 2009
    Madison,Wisconsin
    I do have it set at the 1.4V, I did try the the .775V for giggles...didn't change anything one way or another. I guess I haven't tried lowering the power amp attenuaters (sp?) and raising the preamp volume, but wouldn't that more or less cancel each other out?
     
  19. InhumanResource

    InhumanResource

    Dec 28, 2012
    I think the clues are in the first post.

    We can't objectively tell how loud stage is beyond "not out of control".

    I would say that 3 12s are not going to bury jack unless the guitarists are playing practice amps.

    OP - what are the guitarists playing through? Where is the lack of commune being, on stage or out front? Are you in the PA at all?
     
    bdplaid, chaosMK and EtoBb like this.
  20. Warpeg

    Warpeg

    Jun 20, 2005
    Ohio
    Do you have the opportunity to swap your pre/power with an actual bass head for testing purposes? I would start there after phasing has validated.

    I have a NEO 412 and I'm in a very loud rock band....it is waaaaay more than enough for me. A rig with 3x NEO 12's should be cranking if properly amplified and EQ'ed!
     

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