3012HO or 3012LF in a Bag End S12-D Cabinet?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by SLIV, Feb 21, 2019.


  1. SLIV

    SLIV

    Jul 16, 2009
    North Carolina, USA
    I need a replacement driver and the Bag End. The Kappalites are attractive for the price, weight, and sonic possibilities. Would either of these Kappalites be appropriate? I know they'll be different than the original but which would you use as a replacement?

    (If it makes a difference in the choice, I have two S12-D cabinets and alway use them both. TIA)
     
    svtb15 likes this.
  2. You can forget about the LF. That's a subwoofer.

    The HO might be ok but you will have to check the tuning works. Then it may still fail to play nice with the original one.

    It wouldn't surprise me if the original is a proprietary version of the HO, not that it would guarantee an HO would work.
     
  3. Yosbank

    Yosbank

    Feb 6, 2019
    +1
    [​IMG]
     
  4. SLIV

    SLIV

    Jul 16, 2009
    North Carolina, USA
    Thanks for the reply. I'm gathering that the LF is not an option (at least not a smart one...)

    Bag End got back to me within a day (pretty impressive) and replied: "The E-12 has long been the standard driver for the S12 cabs. And at this point, really the only option. And though there is no visible evidence of damage on yours, I would guess that the voice coil probably "opened up". It's not real common for that to happen but unfortunately, it can happen."

    Kind of a bummer but I'm leaning towards going for the 3012HO. YOLO! Something new and different. It's just a cabinet and it's only rock and roll. : )
     
  5. BasturdBlaster

    BasturdBlaster

    Feb 19, 2012
    Crandon WI
    I replaced one of my Bag End s15 drivers with the kappa pro 15a and I couldnt be happier. I see they sell a kappa pro 12a but I have no idea if it would be ideal.
     
  6. I tried substituting Eminence into a SWR and it sounded like an asthmatic donkey.

    If I were you I would get the BagEnd and mind the loud knob.

    You can send your cab details to the USSpeaker.com people who will run the numbers on the HO tuning. You might have to measure the box and porting for them.
     
    AstroSonic, wave rider and SLIV like this.
  7. HaphAsSard

    HaphAsSard

    Dec 1, 2013
    Italia
    FYI, I've read that the Bag End E-12 is based on the Eminence Delta Pro-12A. Judging from the tiny pic on the website and comparing it to the Eminence, they do look similar. How tweaked the OEM driver is, and consequently how the parameters of the two drivers, hence their performance (especially how the Delta Pro works with the internal volume and tuning of the S12-D box), actually differ, I haven't the slightest clue.
    Still, the Eminence might be the closest thing there is to the original. Heavy mofo, though.
    The newer Delta Pro 12-450A is quite a bit lighter, and said to be in the same tonal ballpark, but it is leaner in the lows for any given box volume.
    Bag End D12-B Replacement Speakers
    Need suggestions for DIY 112 cabinet for Dayton Audio PA310-8

    Paging @AstroSonic for suggestions about the Kappalite 3012HO swap (is a correction in the tuning/port length preferable? 31 Lts internal and 59 Hz were my eyeballing of the box specs as-is, but I may be wrong), if the OP is leaning toward it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
    ThisBass and AstroSonic like this.
  8. Of the two, the 3012HO is closest to 'full range', and is significantly more sensitive. Compared to the stock driver, it has a bit less treble extension, more power handling (thermal and Xmax) and about the same sensitivity. Further, it will perform well in that cab, provided the the cab is optimally tuned. The Bag End website indicates an internal volume of 1.4 cf, with a rear vent (no dimensions or tuning frequency). The cab would probably weigh 8-10 pounds less with the 3012HO. If someone would provide the vent dimensions, the tuning frequency could be calculated, and the bass response of the 3012HO in that cab could be modeled.
     
    Al Kraft, ThisBass and HaphAsSard like this.
  9. ThisBass

    ThisBass

    Aug 29, 2012
    Germany
    Personally I very suggest to replace the broken speaker with an OEM one.

    If you want to replace the broken driver for a different type of speaker (may be due to sound reasons) you may (also) want give a chance for the Faital 12PR300.
    Based on the total cab dimension I guess the net volume for about 1.5 cu ft (@AstroSonic calls the net volume to be 1.4 cu ft and I think the little deviation of 0.1 cu ft is nothing to talk home about).

    For typical MI bass guitar 2.5" VC loudspeakers I guess the cab tuning for about 1.5 cu ft in the "ballpark" range ~55Hz.

    Both loudspeakers 3012HO and 12PR300 show a very similar low response while the 12PR300 shows a somewhat more "balanced" roll off.

    Interestingly, both drivers seem to accomplish very well on paper
     
  10. ThisBass

    ThisBass

    Aug 29, 2012
    Germany
    upload_2019-2-23_1-44-57.png

    I can't remember I would ever have seen such a good match of group delay with different loudspeakers.
    The nearly identical matching of group delay also predicts nearly identical step response (and also phase response). I think Officer Spock of spaceship Enterprise would call this all "very fascinating"
     
    HaphAsSard likes this.
  11. Wasnex

    Wasnex

    Dec 25, 2011
    All the ports I have seen in these cabs are simply a round hole cut in the back. Port length is the thickness of the wood.

    hsewvvnskhjpkncpw3ae.jpg
    bagend_s12ba_l4.jpg

    You can see the port depth better on this D12
    20120121_165222-jpg.jpg
     
    wave rider likes this.
  12. wave rider

    wave rider

    Jan 5, 2005
    Close to two inches in diameter and the thickness of the panel for depth, .75 inch. On mine, the Deep Red™ carpet is tucked into the port making the measurements off by that much. The Baltic Birch models are probably spot on for those measurements.

    Interested in what you folks model…

    Edit> Also wondering if the S-12 box would work well with the COAX drivers @DukeLeJeune mentioned the other day.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
    Wasnex likes this.
  13. A 2 inch diameter port that is 3/4 inches long would place Fb in the low 50's. I suppose that any chuffing would be less audible due to port location on the back. If the stock driver is a Delta Pro variant it may only have about 3.5 mm Xmax, so chuffing potential is much less than with the 3012HO. I would go to a 4 inch diameter port - easily done. If the OP likes the Bag End tone, he may just want to get a stock replacement.
     
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  14. SLIV

    SLIV

    Jul 16, 2009
    North Carolina, USA
    I apologize if this is a dumb question but when measuring the box, I'm assuming the measurements should be done from the inside, so what about the thick foam baffling? Does that count as "the wall" or are we talking from inside wood to inside wood?
     
  15. SLIV

    SLIV

    Jul 16, 2009
    North Carolina, USA
    Once again I am deeply impressed by the knowledge and generosity of the Talkbass community. Unbelievable and thank you all. I will post updates when I make some decisions. Exciting stuff!
     
  16. Haroldo

    Haroldo Supporting Member

    Aug 31, 2005
    North Shore, MA
    "Inside wood to inside wood" is correct.
     
    Downunderwonder and AstroSonic like this.
  17. The only dumb questions are the ones that don't get asked. :) Measurements for the interior volume of the cabinet are made from the interior wood surfaces. Be sure to account for the baffle board setback.
     
  18. Haroldo

    Haroldo Supporting Member

    Aug 31, 2005
    North Shore, MA
    Beware the baffled boar.....very dangerous when cornered!
     
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  19. BassmanPaul

    BassmanPaul Inactive


    We haven’t sent you our collective invoices yet. That might change your mind a bit! :D
     
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  20. BassmanPaul

    BassmanPaul Inactive

    For myself, If the proper driver is available from Bag End that’s what I would install. You have good cabinets don’t cheap out on them now.
     
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  21. Primary

    Primary TB Assistant

    Here are some related products that TB members are talking about. Clicking on a product will take you to TB’s partner, Primary, where you can find links to TB discussions about these products.

     
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