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4 Progressive Bass Lines for "All The Things You Are"

Discussion in 'Music Theory [DB]' started by Steve Freides, Apr 5, 2018.


  1. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    To my way of thinking and hearing, a chord "name" suggests a chord voicing AND that voicing can often imply much more - even the missing "odd" notes can be inferred if the hearer has a deeper knowledge of the Harmony.
    So, in my world, the chord name "Fmin7" suggests AT LEAST the following notes as (what I call) "Chord Tones" - notes that don't "disagree" with the Harmony at that moment: F,G,Ab,Bb,C,D,Eb,F.
    I don't hear or include "Db" in those "walkdown" notes, as I've previously explained. See next sentence -
    FYI - I DO walk down on the Fmin7 chord - F, Eb,D,C....when approaching the Bbmin7 chord from above - (UNLESS the pianist has drastically added/subtracted notes that now make "Fmin7" an invalid Name or Sound.) I like to incorporate even the (phantom?) "odd" notes, as "connective tissue" between the primary "1,3,5,7" notes, so that the bassline reflects and supports the literal OR implied tonality suggested (and played) by the chord voicing.
    The pianists I enjoy playing with NEVER just play "F,Ab,C,Eb" when the chord name is Fmin7. They are always embellishing and expanding (extending!) the chord by incorporating much more than than the literal chord name.
    Finally, my Big Gripe with most /all of the books written regarding "....How to Play Walking Basslines", (and there are many), is that they DO NOT address the actual chord "VOICING" that may (or should) be occurring as the bassist is creating the bassline.
    I'll Tacit for now...but I'm not done!
    Thanks for your interest and civility, Steve.
     
    Tom Lane likes this.
  2. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides Former Mannes College Theory Faculty Supporting Member

    Dec 11, 2007
    Ridgewood, NJ
    We get into the realm of philosophy here, I think.

    Whether those inferred notes constitute an improvement is going to be in the eyes/hear/fingers of the beholder. No doubt my particular background figures into my preferences - growing up, I studied jazz and my teacher often criticized what I did as "too commercial." I went on to study classical music through a doctoral degree, and when you do that, you often come away with a certain reverence for what's printed on the page. I'm well aware that adherence to what's on the printed page has changed a great deal, even in classical music, over the centuries, and I don't mean to paint a monolithic picture, but all this conspires to find me playing standards with more of less the changes as written, and taking liberties with individual lines.

    And all that said, you spelled out a Dorian mode, so I'm guessing you're a fan of that sound - again, no pejorative intended, just observing. My own preferences run to the three forms of minor found in classical music: natural, harmonic, and melodic, and therefore not Dorian.

    It's all good. What would be interesting, if you could provide it, would be some way of representing on the page what a pianist you like to play with would do - I just have the melody, after all. Perhaps you could include expanded chord names that reflect your preferences - that would be a step in the right direction. Even better might be block chord voices as another line - I'm happy to add a two-staff piano line to what I did if you send it to me, similar to the chord voicings you posted a few messages ago.

    As to civility, no thanks necessary but you're welcomed all the same. I moderate a board on a different subject matter entirely, and we have "Ladies and Gentlemen Only" printed on the front page of our forum - and I'm the enforcer. My own opinion is that people who aren't civil are just acting out their own [email protected]#$ in the context of whatever is being discussed - I wish they'd do that with their spouse or friends or therapist instead. Being civil isn't hard if your head isn't stuck up your rear end. :)

    Thank you for the conversation, too, Don - I am really interested in what you're saying here because it's a different, but understandable, perspective than mine and the more you talk about it, the more I get where you're coming from and therefore the more I can experiment with what you're suggesting on my own.

    -S-
     
    Don Kasper likes this.
  3. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    I have a gig tonite
    LOVE the Dorian Minor scale. I use it waaaay more than any of the other 3 versions of the Minor Scale. (I am NOT a Modalist, by the way. I just like the sound of that collection of notes, known as Dorian, on a minor chord.)

    I am NOT A (good) Pianist, or an Arranger, but I will attempt to provide a sketch of what I'm able to hear & play as extended chord voicings for ATTYA. (But, I'm working tonite - so this may happen tomorrow.)
    Thanks.
     
  4. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    Only if the chord is spelled "Fmin/Maj7", OR, I hear that the harmony has actually changed to Fmin/maj7. I'm not a fan of forcing a "stand-alone" E natural into a (sounding) Fmin7 in my basslines. Soloing is another matter. The soloist has poetic license in that case. IMO.
    And conversely - I'm not a fan of the pianist forcing an E natural into the Fmin texture unless the soloist is "asking" for it, melodically.
    Fixed it for you!

    See my previous responses - NO Db in the chord voicing - unless the pianist finds a way to add a Db and maintain the Fmin sonority. (A quick chromatic slide from Db to C in the Fmin voicing doesn't count. I mean a "stand-alone" Db.)
    Can you (or anyone else) provide a voicing of Fmin7 that contains a Db, yet still maintains the aroma of "Fminor"? I can't.

    Thanks, Tom.
     
    Tom Lane likes this.
  5. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    Here is a sketch of a possible harmonic template of ATTYA using possible 3 note piano voicings, Left Hand only - I'm assuming a bass player supplying the root, and the pianist's Right Hand playing a solo.
    I've named them to specify the harmonic content of the voicing - that is, in regard to the extensions that are contained in the voicing. (FYI - I use a Triangle7 for MAJOR 7..., a small 0 for dim)
    pdf attached for EZ printing.
    (I'm planning on sketching larger (2-hand) extended voicings for a pianist accompanying a soloist. More later...after I slop the hogs.)
    Thanks.
    IMG_3613.JPG
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
    Steve Freides and Whousedtoplay like this.
  6. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Beautiful piano chord voicings.
    Thank you!
     
    Don Kasper likes this.
  7. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    Here is the "5 note voicing" sketch.
    Please - NO Ball Busting regarding Enharmonic Spellings - to me an A# sounds like a Bb and Bb is sometimes easier to read.
    Secondly - Same conditions - Bass is providing the Root;pianist is possibly comping for a soloist. I use tools like this to expand the possibilities of my basslines and solos, (and my "hearing" of Harmony.)
    Also - I Am A Thief - the Absus chord in m.35 is stolen from LA Pianist Matt Harris - he played this change on a duo gig, and I smiled outloud. It is a beautiful delay of the Tonic Abmajor arrival and feels like being on a Mobius Strip - you never quite know where the exit is, or, if there IS an exit!
    pdf attached for printing, as well.
    Thanks.
    IMG_3622.JPG
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  8. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Downloaded on my computer and saved on Cloud.:thumbsup:
    Now, "come and take it" :hyper:

    Thank you.
     
    Don Kasper likes this.
  9. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Don, the following is the last part of the song, "All the things you are", by Barbara Streisand.
    It starts around Measure 25 on your/Steve Freides' sheet.
    (Please, transpose it).
    What do you think about the chord choices in Measure 27 - as Edim7 (Edim7/A), Db minor in Measure 30, Ab in m. 31, and two chords Cmin / F in m.32?

    The original video.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
    Don Kasper likes this.
  10. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    WUTP,
    I really like those changes (in our key) :
    m.25: Fmin7..../ Bbmin7..../ Emin7- A7/ Abmaj7.../Dbmaj7.../Dbmin7.../Abmaj7.../Cmin7 - F7(#11)/...etc.
    I've heard that hip substitution before (I forget who showed it to me...). In place of the Eb7 approaching the Abmaj7 from "underneath" by a Perfect Fourth, the Emin7 - A7 reaches the Abmaj7 from a Half-Step above: A7 being a Tritone substitution of Eb7.
    I can guarantee you these choices were decided before the performance by the band (and Babs?) The strings have some real pretty note choices - It is worth singing those counter melodies to hear/see what part of the chord they are playing. (EX. in m.32 on F7 #11 - they have the #11!)
    Also - in the original published sheet music, (in a BAD Fake Book that I have), m. 31 is NOT Cmin7, but is Abmaj. The BS version follows that template. (Jazz Guyz must have changed it to Cmin7, at some point.)
    Thanks for posting this.
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  11. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    lurk likes this.
  12. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides Former Mannes College Theory Faculty Supporting Member

    Dec 11, 2007
    Ridgewood, NJ
    What is "CQ?" And who/what is suggesting F7?

    Thanks.

    -S-
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2018
  13. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    It's Bert Ligon
    Bert Ligon is director of jazz studies at the University of South Carolina. He received his Bachelor of Music and his Master of Music in jazz piano performance and arranging from the University of North Texas. Ligon has published three books, “Jazz Theory Resources Vol. 1 & 2,” “Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony,” and “Comprehensive Technique for the Jazz Musician.” Mr. Ligon has published several original compositions and arrangements for big band, jazz orchestra and steel drum ensembles.

    Bert Ligon - School of Music | University of South Carolina

    Here are his transcriptions from his web-site.

    USC JAZZ TRANSCRIPTIONS

    CQ - Cyclical Quadruplet pattern.

    cq.PNG

    From here:
    https://michaelbrawley.weebly.com/uploads/1/0/9/6/10968906/joehendersonisfahan.pdf
     
  14. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides Former Mannes College Theory Faculty Supporting Member

    Dec 11, 2007
    Ridgewood, NJ
    @Whousedtoplay, you have answered the "who" question, thank you.

    I still don't know what CQ is - I get that it stands for something, but what does it mean?

    ...

    Alright, I Googled it - it's like something I teach, kinda. I've just haven't heard that expression before.

    -S-
     
  15. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Don will join us and explain.
     
  16. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides Former Mannes College Theory Faculty Supporting Member

    Dec 11, 2007
    Ridgewood, NJ
    If it's I - vi - ii - V - I, I don't need an explanation.

    -S-
     
  17. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    P.S. 1. I just like Don's excellent explanation and his knowledge to diplomatically serve it for less educated amateur musicians like me.
    2. I
    know for sure that with your credentials - you don't need any explanations, but...
    We have a lot of more TB members who could use some info.


    Here are some examples of CQ from Bert Ligon.

    cq3.PNG

    cq4.PNG
    cq5.PNG
     
  18. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    For the record - I have never seen, heard, tasted, touched or smelled the term "CQ".
    I am but a simple man with "4 strings and a dream..."
    Thanks.
     
    Steve Freides likes this.
  19. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Here is another one of my confusions from the same measure of Bdim7.
    I've tried to transcribed the bass line from Ella Fitzgerald's "All the things..." and got confused.
    (Plus, some notes without "proper intonation"; therefore, I needed to make my choice.)
    Also, I needed to transpose the line and to incorporate some open strings for DB.
    The note choices were so odd to me; therefore, I've stopped even writing chords.
    EF-25.PNG
     
  20. Don Kasper

    Don Kasper Supporting Member

    This looks totally BOGUS to me.
    The Left Hand chord voicings (lower Staff) in m.30 & 31 are OVER an OCTAVE(!) and have redundant doubled notes...
    Secondly, the harmonic analysis of m. 32 ("E7#9") is Just Wrong - there is an F# in the melody (NATURAL 9) and the LH is playing an A and D - which is outlining a Bmin7 (assuming the bassist is playing a "B"). BE may have been implying Bmin7 in place of Bdim7.
    This is why I Hate & Love the INTERNET.
    Aaaaargh!
    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  21. Primary

    Primary TB Assistant

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