410 line array modification

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Bahjark, Mar 22, 2020.

  1. Bahjark

    Bahjark

    May 30, 2018
    I'm wanting to modify a 410 cabinet so that one column of speakers does not produce high frequencies, in order to give it better dispersion. In effect, I guess, it would be like a low pass filter on two of the speakers. Anyone ever tried this, and if so, how? I am handy with a soldering iron and can read instructions, but don't know if it would involve capacitors or resistors or what type.
    Thanks in advance
     
  2. Bahjark

    Bahjark

    May 30, 2018
    Barefaced does this with their 210, 410, 610, and 810 cabinets in order to get better dispersion.
     
  3. sissy kathy

    sissy kathy Back to Bass-ics Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 21, 2014
    Arbutus, MD
    This needs to be redirected to the Amps and Cabs forum. I'll report it for the move.
     
    S-Bigbottom likes this.
  4. Bahjark

    Bahjark

    May 30, 2018
    Looks like it's already been done, but thank you if it hasn't.
     
  5. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
    My experience specifically for bass guitar applications is that it makes little difference in practice.

    Changing your strings likely has greater impact.
     
  6. Bahjark

    Bahjark

    May 30, 2018
    Maybe, but I got time and it's a cheap mod, and my cabs sound like mud unless you're right in front of them.
     
  7. Bahjark

    Bahjark

    May 30, 2018
    @agedhorse, it's an honour to have you respond to one of my posts:hyper::bassist:
     
    n1as likes this.
  8. seamonkey

    seamonkey

    Aug 6, 2004
    If you have stereo power amp with a DSP or crossover it's an easy thing to experiment with.
    Otherwise this "half alignment" thing can be a complicated engineering exercise with passive crossover components and trying to keep the impedance constant for the amplifier.
     
    agedhorse likes this.
  9. Wasnex

    Wasnex

    Dec 25, 2011
    Google "talkbass .5 alignment" and you will get a bunch of hits.

    I suspect the results with .5 alignment are a bit confounded and here's why. Whenever you use any sort of filter like an HPF or LPF it introduces phase shift. With a crossover, ideally you design a complementary HPF and LPF so the phase integrates throughout the crossover region.

    When you use only an LPF, the phase errors introduced by the filter are going to steer the dispersion pattern across the top of the LPFs range. So you may find that you are trading one problem for another.

    I did an experiment running .5 alignment with some EVM18Bs. The idea was to run one 18B from about 100hz down and run the other full range. The phase errors between the two drivers made the low end looser and less defined, and I preferred the sound with both drivers run full range.

    The speaker processor I was using was a Klark Teknik DN9848E and I did all alignments by ear. It's possible I could have gotten better results if I had some sort of alignment suite like SMAART. The DN9848E has all-pass filters which may have allowed me to compensate for the phase errors, but that sort of subtle alignment is not something you can do by ear IMHO.

    I have heard some HiFi and also high end pro speakers with .5 alignment that I thought sounded really good. An example is the Meyer UMP-1P. UPM

    Have fun and Good luck!
     
  10. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
    It involves at the very least an appropriate value choke in series with the high-passed woofers. For a second order filter, an appropriate value shunt capacitor would be required.
     
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  11. JimmyM

    JimmyM Supporting Member

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Yamaha, Ampeg, Line 6, EMG
    You are better off with job-specific speakers than adapting your current speakers.
     
    alanolynn likes this.
  12. ThisBass

    ThisBass

    Aug 29, 2012
    Germany
    Adressed to folks who are handy with tools such as LT Spice.
    Actually its possible to emulate the benefits of .5 alignments with this tool.
    This means that its possible to emulate the dispersion for a standard 410 cab at 45 degree off axis position and compare the outcome with the original sound file.
    Especially for bass guitar the difference isn't as big as it sometimes looks on paper such as is for "more generic" dispersion plots.
    I think its nice to have a .5 alignment but for my personal needs with bass guitar its not a "must have".

    edit,
    I have got a 212+HT cab (the 12"s are line arrayed) and I have got the 810 fridge.
    The 810 fridge suffers a little bit on dispersion issues (a little bit at some content) when listening at off axis postition but (at least to me) that's nothing to talk home about.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2020
  13. micguy

    micguy

    May 17, 2011
    You should know, if you do this, your speakers will sound duller when you’re right in front of them - 6dB less high end. This may not be progress.
     
    ThisBass, Omega Monkey and agedhorse like this.
  14. sawzalot

    sawzalot Supporting Member

    Oct 18, 2007
    The better solution is to run two stacked 4x10s. And 4x the power. It may not help dispersion but you’ll feel like such a badass you won’t care.
     
  15. Clark W

    Clark W Just Say No To Tort! Supporting Member

    Aug 26, 2018
    ^^^This.

    What's better than more speakers and more power? Well even more speakers and more power of course.
     
    Bassdirty and mmon77 like this.