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4x10 versus 6"+8"+10"+15" ?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by doublestop, Jun 18, 2005.


  1. A question. Most cabs have several speakers of the same size. Like: 2x10. Or 4x10. Or 2x12.

    But some cabs have speakers of different sizes. Like: 6"+12". Or: 10"+15". Or even 6+8+10+15. My HiFi speakers at home are of this type as well, they have a woofer, a mid-speaker and a tweeter.

    Theoretically, I would say that cabs with different speakers would be more 'broad band' and 'same size speakers cabs' would be more 'narrow band', and maybe more cutting.

    Is this true? What are the advantages/disadvantages of different speaker sizes in one cab? And why don't we see more 'mixed' cabs (the schroeder 12+10 is one of the few. Glockenklang has a nice 10+15 as well).

    Thanks for all answers, guesses, remarks etc. !

    :cool:
     
  2. Why dont we see more Full range cabinets?...

    Becuase it's not really required- a bass at band level works at a certain frequency- below that frequency would be the drums I dare say, and above is guitar / vocal teritory. There is no real need to go as High as guitars- or low as the ground.

    Full range cabinets would be ahrder to make also- most speakers require a certain sized chamber to function to the desired level, you couldnt put a 15" and a 10" in the same box, without some thought, and design work put into it- The 15" needs "XxX" Liters to function properly, and is cab tuned to "xXx" Frequency- the 10" driver for example would require a whole different set of numbers to get the desired responce...

    Full Range cabinets geenrally contain a box within a box 1 for the 15" and one for the 10"- Some drivers dont require a box at all beacuse the have closed backs, which has enough volume for it to work. The Eminence Alpha 8MR comes to mind, it's an 8" midrange speaker 500k to where ever....


    So my theory is, we dont need them, all we need is enough lowend for the instrument- and enough treble responce for slaps, pops, and transients. That in my opinion is why you generally only find cabs with 10", 12", 15", 18" drivers and a horn...
     
  3. popinfresh

    popinfresh

    Dec 23, 2004
    Melbourne, Aus
    As Cul said. Alot of the time, it's not needed. Then again, my Mesa 1516 which has a 15, a 10 and two 6's + tweet in it sounds amazing in a band setting. Only problem is, been true Diesel Mesa style, it weighs about 130 pounds.
     
  4. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    Full range multiple driver boxes absolutely work better, much better, than single sized driver boxes. However, a full range box using a variety of driver sizes requires a true crossover between the various drivers to work properly. Due to the high power requirements of electric bass the components cost of those crossovers can be quite high, as much as that of the drivers in some cases. Full range boxes also have to be properly designed by an audio engineer to work properly, whereas the sum total of the average electric bass cab's engineering is 'that looks OK'. So as a matter of both added cost and the required engineering complexity full range boxes just aren't seen very much.
     
  5. Thanks all.

    Especially Bill, for your detailled answer. Bill,

    * are you suggesting that a 'standard' passive crossover is not good enough in a bass cab?

    * And, secondly, that the usual solution of 'two (or 3 or 4) compartiments in a box' isn't good enough either?

    * Would a 1x15 + 1x12 + 1x10 + 1x6 (etc) solution help to solve the 'cab design problem' ?

    Thanks again,

    Peter (doublestop)
     
  6. alexclaber

    alexclaber Commercial User

    Jun 19, 2001
    Brighton, UK
    Director - Barefaced Ltd
    Hmmm... no. Listen.

    Alex
     
  7. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    Depends what you mean by crossover. Some cabs have a single capacitor on the tweeter as a high pass filter, but that's not a crossover. Real crossovers have both high pass and low pass sections (and band pass in 3 ways) and use at least 3rd order HP slopes to properly protect HF elements.

    Separate compartments aren't a necessity at all. For instance, I'm presently prototyping a cab with a Delta 12LF, Alpha 8MR and APT 200, and since both the mid and tweeter have sealed rear chambers there is no need for separate compartments.

    Two drivers are all you really need, as while having a woofer and a midrange is a necessity for bass, tweeters are not (despite that fact that most 2 way bass cabs use a woofer and tweeter and no midrange driver). For a full range system including a dedicated sub you could use four drivers, but not necessarily sized the way you have them. It's not the size of the driver that matters, it's how it works. For instance, my personal bass system uses two tens and eight tweeters, but the two tens are different models, one is in a six foot folded horn ,the other in a three foot folded horn, and the tweeters are arranged in dual cross-firing vertical arrays. The prototype I mentioned above is another way to go about it. There are many alternatives, so you really can't say that any one particular topology is a 'solution'.
     
  8. Whappo Grande

    Whappo Grande

    Feb 9, 2002
    Santa Clara, CA.
    Manager: AccuGroove Speakers
  9. andrewd

    andrewd

    Sep 5, 2003
    Boston, MA
    that wal is beautiful! i love the watery grain

    back to the topic, it seems to me thatunless youve got something special worked out (like the schroeders do...cant wait to get mine!), separate cabs for different speaker sizes would be best.
     
  10. YES ! :D
     
  11. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    That's effectively seperate chambers, since none of the non-similar drivers are sharing air.

    For mine, the hardest part about using so many different sized speakers is finding a combination of matched sensitivities so that none of the speakers drown each other out. You want each speaker to be as loud as each other so they blend together. That's no easy task.

    There's also too many variables in desigining crossovers. In theory one speaker should stop working where the next one takes over right? But are we designing a PA speaker or a bass enclosure? Sometimes speakers with overlapping frequencies can work really well in a bass enclosure, but the only way to determine the crossover points is to try out lots of possible combinations, furthier increasing R & D time and further increasing costs.

    The trouble with commercial cabs is thay have to be profitable. That's why almost every speaker company out there has a 4x10 in the range and why only a few will challenge the norm and create something different.
     
  12. popinfresh

    popinfresh

    Dec 23, 2004
    Melbourne, Aus
    My god that Wal is hot...

    /Off topic.
     
  13. Whappo Grande

    Whappo Grande

    Feb 9, 2002
    Santa Clara, CA.
    Manager: AccuGroove Speakers
    Amen Bill, amen...

    Mark
    AccuGroove Speaker Cabinets
     
  14. lefty

    lefty

    Sep 25, 2004
    when i went to the bass show thingy in anahiem after the namm show they had a accu-groove cab like that and it souned SWEET!!! . i did`nt see what kind of head they were using. if anyone know`s what kind of rig that was i`d lie to know so i kan put it on my wish list.
     
  15. So how about these opinions (on http://www.glennletsch.com/speakers.html) ?

    1. Folded-horn cabinets with the speaker facing the
    rear are a nightmare. They project your sound too far beyond the stage.

    2. For a true, punchy bass sound, any note plucked on the bass guitar must saturate one size of speaker.

    The biamp system is robbing you of monster tone! It's one thing to biamp or triamp a P.A. system to accurately reproduce each and every instrument in the band, but a bass guitar doesn't require that level of signal manipulation. In this instance, more tonal options only serve to dissipate the aggressive wallop of the bass.

    3. Here's the secret of a bass player's success-the speaker system that works consistently in 95 percent of all live performance situations. It's simple: tens, tens, and more tens. Ten-inch speaker cabinets (2 x 10, 4 x 10, or 8 x 10-you can't lose!) supply tons of lows, mids, and highs. These cabinets will keep your bass sound tight and muscular. Trust me, your notes will sound big, round, and articulate.
    And if you still believe that an 18-inch speaker cabinet should kick butt on a "puny" 10-inch system, line up the two configurations side by side and compare the sound. Your ears will not lie to you. The tens will convert the most skeptical player. I guarantee it.

    Why reinvent the wheel? Savvy players stick with what works best, and 10-inch speakers are the prime choice for raging bass sound. Now get down and go deep!

    So, what to think of this? :confused: Is he talking nonsense ? Or what ? :confused:
     
  16. orskard

    orskard

    Mar 17, 2004
    Indiana
    peavey did that back in the day. The made 18" + 2x8" if i remember correctly.
     
  17. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    I suspect that he does not hold a degree in audio engineering. He's certainly entitled to his opinion nonetheless.
     
  18. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    In fairness, these are opinions as someone who never claimed to be an audio engineer. He's coming from the angle of gigging bassist. There are lots of those out there who swear by 10's.
     
  19. nasaldischarges

    nasaldischarges

    Jun 11, 2005
    this is a stupid comment but, i think it would be cool to have an 18 15 10 cab...for the really deep thumps and "well-pronounced" pops. also it would be good for regular playing.