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7+9 chords

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by afromoose, Apr 25, 2009.


  1. afromoose

    afromoose Guest

    What scales are good to play walking bass over a 7+9 chord?

    I'm a little confused about this - while I've been playing, the major/minor scale or Hindu scale works well over this 7+9 (it's the 5th mode of the melodic minor mode). In Aebersold, the scale choice on the Scale Syllabus (middle page of 'How to play jazz') says to use this Hindu scale for a 7b6 chord. On the 7+9 it suggests Diminished whole tone.

    Could it be that this is a very rudimentary list?

    Does anybody have any links to a more complete list of scale/chord combinations?

    I would like to look at each chord thoroughly and explore lots of different avenues.
     
  2. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Banned

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    Aebersold is a good ressource for scales/chords even if I don't agree with his notation of the alt. chord x+9 which could be seen as a x9(#5) based on the whole-tone scale instead. Besides that it is extremely helpful.

    In application it depends where the chords are moving. This has an impact on your choice of notes in a walking bass.

    Sly
     
  3. afromoose

    afromoose Guest

    So you mean he notates it +9 for add9 chords?
     
  4. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Banned

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    No for a raised 5 and raised 9.

    There is a way to write a dominant chord with a raised 5th like this: x+7.
    But if you want a major 9th in the chord,it can be written x+9 for ease to read instead of x9(#5).
    But Aebersold uses this notation to express a dominant chord with both a raised 5th and 9th,

    Sly
     
  5. Pacman

    Pacman Layin' Down Time Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 1, 2000
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
    I would worry more about the chord tones than the scale - you get 4 notes in a bar. Make them good ones.
     
  6. EADG mx

    EADG mx

    Jul 4, 2005
    What are the chord tones? I am not familiar with this spelling.
     
  7. Febs

    Febs Supporting Member

    May 7, 2007
    Philadelphia, PA
    According to Aebersold's chord syllabus, it's a 7#5#9 chord with an implied b9. The example Aebersold gives is C7+9 = C E G# Bb D# (Db).

    Personally, I think that this is a terrible way to spell that chord, because it could be interpreted as C7(9), Caug7(9) or C7(#9) in addition to the apparent intention, C7#5#9.
     
  8. afromoose

    afromoose Guest

    Generally I've heard that if you see a +, that means sharp five, right?

    What's weird is where does the sharp 9 come from? If it's C7, fine that's dominant seven, then +, a sharp 5, and then 9 - how do you assume it's sharp?

    How would he notate a chord which was 1, 3, #5, b7, 9?

    Anyway, my question originality related to the chord itself and possible scales to cover it.

    I don't think that just sticking with the chord tones is a complete answer, seems like a bit of a fob off. Obviously it excludes the possibility of sticking on that chord for a while, or occasionally using a run, or generally, having more interesting approaches than just chord tones only, or, simplest of all using four notes that walk stepwise rather than arpeggiate.

    Can anybody suggest their preferred nomenclature for that chord? Also, say what scales they would tend to use?
     
  9. Mark Wilson

    Mark Wilson Supporting Member

    Jan 12, 2005
    Toronto, Ontario
    Endorsing Artist: Elixir® Strings
    I'm still confused..

    Are we talking about a dominant 7th with a 9? or #9? Or #5 and 9?
    What's going on?
     
  10. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Banned

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    Notating chords could be be confusing sometimes.
    I would suggest to check out Sher Music's New Real Books for a great way of spelling and writing chords but there is no scale source.

    I'll give you some of my interpretation of some of these chords.

    C7(#9) : This is the funky chord à la James Brown. This is used with the Blues scale and in Jazz the best scale would be the Diminished Scale (H-W steps). It would have these notes C-E-G-Bb-D#(Eb).

    C+7 : the other notation could be C7(#5) : Without any ninth involved in the spelling or harmony the choice is arbitrary between the Whole-Tone scale and the Altered scale know as the Diminished Whole-tone or Super Locrian. It would have these notes C-E-G#-Bb.

    C+9 :the other notation could be C9(#5) This should be seen as a Dominant 9 with a raised 5. This is the Whole-tone scale.It would have these notes C-E-G#-Bb-D.
    This is where notation between schools differed. Aebersold use it to indidates both raised 5 and raised 9.

    C+7(#9) :the other notation could be C7(#5,#9). To me it is easier as a bass player to see at the beginning of the chord notation that the fifth is altered without having to go in the brackets to see that. This the altered chord with the Diminished WT or altered scale which is based on the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale.
    It would have these notes C-E-G#-Bb-D#(Eb).

    Hope this helps,

    Sly
     
  11. afromoose

    afromoose Guest

    Yeah, C+7(#9) seems like the most sensible notation.

    So as for scales, anyone with any ideas?
     
  12. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Banned

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    The scale that fits all those alterations is the 7th mode of Db melodic minor. This scale is called: Altered scale/Super Locrian or Diminished-Whole tone scale.

    Here are the notes: C-Db-Eb-E-F#(Gb)-G#(Ab)-Bb.

    You can also use the Eb minor pentatonic.

    You can use a passing-tone between the F# and G# to make it an eight notes scale and put the CT at the right place,

    Sly
     
  13. afromoose

    afromoose Guest

    Thanks sly

    Sorry but what does CT stand for?
     
  14. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Banned

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    Chord Tones ;-)

    Sly
     
  15. afromoose

    afromoose Guest

    Oh i see so that you can walk it and every fourth note will line up with a chord tone?
     
  16. jweiss

    jweiss Supporting Member

    Jul 5, 2007
    Park City, Utah
    +1.

    For a chord like this I'd hit the root on beat 1 and the #5 on beat 3.
     
  17. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Banned

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    Yes and in an 8th notes passage as well. Every beat would be on a good note.

    Sly
     
  18. Pacman

    Pacman Layin' Down Time Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 1, 2000
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification

    Great if you're soloing. Terrible if you're trying to outline the harmony. But that's just my opinion.
     
  19. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Banned

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    I agree with you for the Eb minor pentatonic. I did included it for soloing useage,but as far as walking over a C+7(#9),every note of that scale could be seen as a chord tone,

    Respect,

    Sly
     
  20. afromoose

    afromoose Guest

    Well, I will enjoy trying this out and hearing what you guys are talking about!

    Thanks for the advice, it's much appreciated.
     

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