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7b9; Autumn Leaves.

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by nitsuj, Sep 26, 2010.


  1. 1. What is the name of the 7b9 symbol?
    2. What are other symbols that represent this chord?
    3. What scale(s) are utilized when soloing over this chord?
    4. When walking on Autumn Leaves, what notes or scale tones "should" you use to best define the sound of the chord, while not stepping on the other soloist toes?
     
  2. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Inactive

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    1) It is a dominant b9. More often found as a V7 to I minor.

    2) V7 without mentioning the b9 but knowing it is a V7 to a I minor and the b9 is a natural extension of the dominant chord in minor. But the V7(b9) arpeggio starting on the third is a diminished 7 chord which could be interesting to know and use since there are four of them starting on all the notes of that arpeggio: 3-5-b7-b9.

    3) If it is a V7 to I minor, the best scale is the fifth mode of the minor harmonic of the I chord. In Gmin if you have a D7(b9) you will play the fifth mode of G minor harmonic: d-eb-f#-g-a-bb-c-(c#) as a passing tone and this scale is called the jewish scale.
    If the V7(b9) is leading to a I Major, then you will play the diminished scale Half-tone, whole-tone: d-eb-f-f#-g#-a-b-c

    4)First, root and fifth, then major third, b7, b9 and b6 are the notes that will make it sounds like a V7(b9) going to the I minor.

    Good luck
     
  3. I'll add for.....
    Yes to what has been said. You have the chord chart on Autumn Leaves how much of the chord is to be used? Good question. IMO Chord tones will not step on anyone toes. Now as with everything we do there is a place for just roots and there is a place for a full chord tone. For example: R-3-5-b7. Start with root's first then R-5 then fill in the rest of the chord tones, i.e. the 3 (b3) and 7(b7) or b5's as you think best.

    Some of the measures will have two chords per measure. You only have room for two beats per chord for those. Again R-R or R-5 for both chords is all the room you have.

    I would not advise going beyond the sevenths until you become well at ease with the song. Up through the sevenths is as far as this chart goes, more than enough IMO.

    Good luck.
     
  4. 1. Could you call C7b9 a Diminished Half/Whole Step Chord; where you play a diminished scale beginning with a half-step?

    2. If so, the chord tones of C7b9 would then be C, Eb, F#, A

    or...
    C, Eb, F#, Bb

    or...
    C, E, G, Bb

    ???
     
  5. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Inactive

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    Well like I explained before, it is best to know where the chord is landing first to make your "best" choice. Review my post to understand the choices. To answer your question here: the second option is right.Always think 1-3-5-7 first. This is still a dominant chord 1-3-5-b7 but with a b9. It can be also a diminished arpeggio starting on the b9 and the same arpeggio's shapes can be built from the other notes of that same arpeggio also which are the basic 3,5 and b7 of the dominant chord.
     
  6. SO, in context of Autumn Leaves...

    Real Book has Autumn Leaves in the key of G.
    I'm thinking the song is AABA form.
    In the B section, there is a B7b9.
    So, E is the relative minor of G, right? So then, the 5th of the minor (or the major 3rd... why not just say this?) could often be in the 7b9 form?
    So, according to this... playing the Phrygian Mode would meet my needs, right?
    Now, I have also heard this (7b9) referred to as a Diminished Half/Whole Tone Scale, composed of 8 different notes (1st, b2nd, b3rd, nat. 3rd, #4th, 5th, 6th, and b7th). Is this right? Would both the Phrygian mode and Diminished H/W scale work?
     
  7. You are hung up on that one chord. One chord does not give you the whole story. With out the whole story you limit your "best choice".

    Your sheet music tells you the song is in G. Yes that also leaves the possibility of Em, as Em is the relative minor of G. But with out looking at the other chords - which you have not told us - you do not know for sure. OK the Autumn Leaves I gave you is also in Em, so I bet yours is also. Mine has the B7, which is the structure I need. Your B7b9 IMHO is adding color and flavor, you already have the B7's structure. You seem to be hanging your hat on the 7b9 and that is the reason for my post. Why is the 7b9 all that important?

    Let's assume the other chords do point you to Em. What are your solo choices? I think that is the real question. It's not all that complicated.

    Since we are minor any of the three minor scales would qualify as would any of the minor modes. I do prefer to use modes over modal vamps, but that's another story. Now any chord's pentatonic played over that specific chord - yes major pentatonic over major chords and minor over minor chords will also work. You never go to far wrong if you follow the chord tones. But, do you have room for that? Now which is THE best way to go. You must look at more than one thing to make that decision.

    If I was going modal I'd use Dorian, because Dorian is the attractive minor jazz mode - You mentioned Phrygian. Phrygian is the Exotic Spanish mode and Autumn Leaves is not exotic or Spanish. See, you have to look at the whole picture. You asked about the Diminished H/W scale working, if it has a b3 sure try it and see. If you like it - it's your rendition of Autumn Leaves do what you like.

    Course you could use the established tune as your melody..... and here you'd be tonal so improvising over the melody using the natural minor scale notes would fit right in.

    Good luck.
     
  8. Febs

    Febs Supporting Member

    May 7, 2007
    Philadelphia, PA
    Well, Autumn Leaves is a well-known jazz standard, so the chords are no mystery, and like many jazz standards, it does not stay in one key throughout the tune. Autumn Leaves uses both G Major and E minor. The first four bars of the tune, for example, are

    Amin7 | D7 | GMaj7 | % |

    which is a typical ii7-V7-I in G Major.

    The next four bars are:

    F#m7(b5) | B7(b9) | Emin | % |

    which is a ii-V-i in E minor. The first four bars of the bridge contain the same progression.

    As slybass mentioned, this progression strongly suggests the use of the E harmonic minor scale. E natural minor is not the best choice over this progression, because it contains a D natural, while the B7(b9) chord contains a D#. Similarly, E melodic minor is not the best choice, because it contains a C#, while the B7(b9) contains a C natural.

    Assuming that you're referring to E Dorian, that would not be my first choice over that progression because E Dorian contains a C# and a D natural, while b7(b9) chord in the progression contain a D# and a C natural.

    Again assuming that you're referring to E Phrygian, that would not be my first choice because it contains an F natural, while the B7(b9) chord contains an F#.

    If you're referring to B Phrygian, while that scale does contain a B, F#, A and C natural, which are the root, fifth, seventh and b9 of the B7(b9) chord, it also contains a D natural. As slybass already noted, this is a dominant chord, so you want that D# in the scale, which means that B Phygian dominant (i.e., the fifth mode of the E harmonic minor scale) is the better choice.
     
  9. mambo4

    mambo4

    Jun 9, 2006
    Dallas
    It's good to be aware of the why of a V7b9 chord, but Here's a dirty little secret:
    If you're walking and supporting a soloist you can practically ignore extensions above the 7 and survive just fine.
    As long as you're emphasizing the root, 3rd 5th & 7th on those strong beats,
    I guarantee I will sound great & nobody will notice you "left out" the extension.
    As long as you don't clash directly with the extension on a strong beat, you're golden.

    I'm sure someone will pounce all over me for saying so...but there it is :)
     
  10. Stick_Player

    Stick_Player Inactive

    Nov 13, 2009
    Somewhere on the Alaska Panhandle (Juneau)
    Endorser: Plants vs. Zombies Pea Shooters
    1. What is the name of the 7b9 symbol? Sometimes "Flat 9", "Dominant Seventh Flat Nine", the classical theorists refer to is as a "Dominant Minor Ninth"
    2. What are other symbols that represent this chord?
    X[SUP]7[/SUP]♭9, X[SUP]7[/SUP]-9
    3. What scale(s) are utilized when soloing over this chord?
    Lots of choices. Some common ones are 'Half-Step Whole-Step' (8-note scale), 'Phrygian Dominant Seventh' (fifth mode of the Harmonic Minor Scale), etc.
    4. When walking on Autumn Leaves, what notes or scale tones "should" you use to best define the sound of the chord, while not stepping on the other soloist toes?
    Start with the triad or dominant seventh chord tones - let the soloist pick the other notes.

    So true.

    What I try to do (often with miserable results) is to find a 'cluster' of notes that works over a larger section, rather than just ONE chord. In this way, I can attempt to play linearly rather than horizontally.

    An example of something I've been exploring, on the Stick, is the solo changes to "Spain" (Corea). The tonal center seems to be G - actually G Lydian. The second chord is F#7 (F#, A#, C#, E), and to my ears, I can continue with using a G Lydian scale - and turn that F#7 into a F#7♭9. Then, further into the changes is a C#7 and the G Lydian still continues to work. Even over the last chord, B7 this G Lydian scale works.

    I'm NOT really thinking G Lydian, but rather a cluster of notes that happen to be the same as G Lydian.

    Or, is it a B Natural Minor scale...

    Which brings me to this: a B Minor pentatonic works over all the changes. And when I use this 5-note cluster, I can add the 'Blues' note (F/E#) - especially over the C#7.

    So the "best choice" is to NOT find a scale for each chord - but set a mood or tonality. That's what I attempt.
     
  11. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Inactive

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    Please reread my first post to understand the scales choices. The diminished H-W won't work here because your V7 leads to a minor chord. For a more diatonic and melodic solo, use the E minor harmonic scale starting on B for the B7.
     
  12. Stick_Player

    Stick_Player Inactive

    Nov 13, 2009
    Somewhere on the Alaska Panhandle (Juneau)
    Endorser: Plants vs. Zombies Pea Shooters
    Excellent choice... B Phrygian Dominant scale. :D
     
  13. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Inactive

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    I know this scale as the Jewish scale with the passing tone between b and a. ;-)


    Phrygian dominant is interesting as a name for this mode as well, Thanks
     
  14. Jim Carr

    Jim Carr Dr. Jim Gold Supporting Member

    Jan 21, 2006
    Denton, TX or Kailua, HI
    fEARful Kool-Aid dispensing liberal academic card-carrying union member Musicians Local 72-147
    You are correct—how's that for a pounce? Wait, what a great name for a tune "Pounce all over me!"
     
  15. Stick_Player

    Stick_Player Inactive

    Nov 13, 2009
    Somewhere on the Alaska Panhandle (Juneau)
    Endorser: Plants vs. Zombies Pea Shooters
    Hava Nagila?

    Good ol' run o' the mill Phrygian scale with a raised third - B, C, D#, E, F#, G, A, B.

    Or, the FIFTH mode of a Harmonic Minor scale, which better describes it.

    Very useful over those V[SUP]7[/SUP]♭9.
     
  16. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Inactive

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    LOL

    Even better when you use the passing tone between B and A to make it an eight-notes scale.
     
  17. Chris K

    Chris K

    May 3, 2009
    Gorinchem,The Netherlands
    Partner: Otentic Guitars
    Phrygian with a raised 3rd?
    That's not cool, that's phrygid.
    If we want to be helpful, why make things even more complicated?

    Much better and much easier.

    Why not stick to major or natural/harmonic/melodic minor + on which note to start... covers most of it.
     
  18. slybass3000

    slybass3000 Inactive

    Nov 5, 2004
    Montréal,Qc,Canada
    No offense Chris but i kinda like what Stick calls it. It makes some sense in this particuliar context. I know it as the jewish scale.

    The problem is that there are no standard in Jazz harmony yet and may be there will never be for the other modes.

    I do agree with you that sometimes things get a bit confusing
    especially around here about harmony. It is a matter of how we learn and how we teach. As a teacher I try to make things really simple and clear to understand for the students. Actually I think I'll try that Phrygian Dominant name at university this week to see how students respond to that ;-)
     
  19. Stick_Player

    Stick_Player Inactive

    Nov 13, 2009
    Somewhere on the Alaska Panhandle (Juneau)
    Endorser: Plants vs. Zombies Pea Shooters
    I can make NO claim to the "Phrygian Dominant" name.

    I first learned it as the "Fifth Mode" of a Harmonic Minor scale.

    It has several other names, though. Pick the one you like best.

    A quick look revealed these names (for the same scale):

    Phrygian dominant scale
    Harmonic minor perfect fifth below scale
    Dominant flat 2 flat 6 scale
    Ahava Rabboh scale
    Freygish scale
    Jewish scale
    Hijaz-Nahawand maqam scale
    Spanish Phrygian scale
    Spanish gypsy scale
    Phrygian major scale
     
  20. 251

    251

    Oct 6, 2006
    Metro Boston MA
    +1. I expect a soloist to use the extended color tones or contrast them to alternate voicing. If I include those tones in the comping rhythm the resulting dissonance will be my contribution to the solo. That is not a good way to make friends.
     

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