830W not loud enough?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by GrooveMonkey, Jul 24, 2003.

  1. 830W not loud enough?
    I gigged at Nectar's in Burlington Vermont last night as I have about ten times before. I got a chance to stand on the dance floor during sound check to listen to the mix. My QSC RMX850 wasn't loud enough. Perhaps my drummer is way too loud. I'm using a SansAmp RBI as my preamp and normaly can't turn the level up past 12 O' clock without it clipping the QSC.

    My EQ was set:

    Drive: 10:00
    Blend: Max
    Bass: 12:30
    Mid: 2:00
    Treble: 11:00
    Level: 12:00

    Ratio: 4:1
    Threshold: 0dB

    The room is notorious for sounding like ****. As soon as I stepped off stage the bass dissapeared from the mix. Any of these settings look wrong to you?

  2. 4 Ohm Ampeg BSE410HLF

    QSC has 30Hz filter set with clip limiter.

    I just replaced the speakon on my cable with a bananna plug based on some suggestions from other foumites. It's possible that I have the polarity backwards though.

    I have the gain maxed on channel one and channel two is rolled all the way back as per the manual.

    It's in bridged mono mode.
  3. rdkill


    Jan 20, 2003
    Were you running bridged or just one channel? What ohms is your cab? Got the 30hz highpass filters on? Limiter on? If bridged, are you sure the banana plug was on the two red posts? If you were bridged and running into 4 ohms that setup should be able to induce severe internal bleeding! By the way, if the room is muddy try putting the 50hz highpass on - it may not sound as good solo but with everyone else playing it might clean up the sound nicely, plus it will give you more volume before the limit light comes on. By the way, it is OK to light the limit light on peaks as long as it ain't on steady on a sustained note.
  4. When the clip lights come on my amp gets very NON musical. Could this nasty sound be the clip limiter kicking in?
  5. rdkill


    Jan 20, 2003
    Man, sure is something wrong with that rig. It should be loud enough to close to kill you. Damn you're almost close enough for me to drop by but Burlington is just barely doable and plattsberg is "forgetAboutIt". :(
  6. Allen Grossman just suggested it may be the cabinet.

    - From HCBF
  7. rickbass

    rickbass Supporting Member

    Can you borrow/rent a good 15" to try out under those middy 10"s??? As was recently noted in another thread, a former 8x10" Ampeg SVT owner finally got a fine 15" and it was the first time he truly heard the lower end of his bass, since, as Gard noted, an SVT can't cut it below 60Hz's.

    The volume of your 10"s could be dropping like a stone, in terms of Hz's, leaving you to compete heavily with your drummer and guitarist for sonic space.
  8. Doh!

  9. i'd say look into that polarity issue. Do a check by using the bridged cable and then a regular cable and checking to see if there's a volume difference. (thats keeping all settings and volumes the same)
  10. Hey GrooveMonkey,

    We don't live far apart. I'm in Malone, not far from Plattsburgh. Maybe I can check out one of your gigs sometime.

    Hope you get your volume figured out. I suggest trying BassistGod's advice.
  11. Cool, PM me with some contact info. Maybe we could meet up sometime.
  12. Mcrelly


    Jun 16, 2003
    Minnesota, USA
    my comment really won't help your volume, but do you really like the blend all the way on?? I use to do that when I first got my RBI, but then I realized I was cranking my mids alot, so to compromize and give me a little more mid-twang I blend at about 2 o'clock and get some of the naked guitar tone.

    now maybe on the volume...are you using the front input of the RBI for your guitar or going through another device first and coming into the RBI via input 2??? I use to run my signal GTR>head>loop to RBI>Loop from RBI> head loop in and then > CABS however I had my pad turned on for the input 2 on the RBI because I was clipping the RBI with too hot a tube gain on my head, then I started wondering "how come this isn't that loud? then I turned off the pad on input 2 and BAM!! volume is high again, I just had to learn to not overdo my tube gain on the head.

    Are you sure your QSC is clipping and not the RBI input? is that an active bass?
  13. Petebass


    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    That will happen at every gig, reagardless of what rig you're using. The trick is to stay out there long enough to let your ears adjust. Remember you're not standing right next to your amp any more, so of course the bass will seem quieter in the mix.

    Here's an experiment. Half way through your set, swap places with your guitarist. This will give you an idea of not only what he's hearing, but of what a guitarists idea of a balanced mix sounds like. I can guarantee you'll bearly be able to hear yourself and he will be complaining about the same.
  14. The clip indicator lights up on the power amp. I'm using the front input on the RBI and I'm playing an active Warwick Thumb bass.

    I've noticed quite a bit more mid-range when I roll off the blend knob of the RBI. It sounds ugly all by itself but probably would cut through better in the mix. The settings I described earlier are WAAAAYYYY loud on stage.

    For a mellow trio my band can be really loud (drummer played metal/punk) before settling in w/us.
  15. How about spmething simple like the active/passive switch? You're Warwick would be a hot signal on the passive mode.

    I'm not questioning your intelligence GM, just going through the process of elimination.
  16. Mcrelly


    Jun 16, 2003
    Minnesota, USA
    oh great way to be subtle, nickelseye :rolleyes: :p
  17. redneck2wild


    Nov 27, 2002
    Memphis, TN
    What type of rig is the guitarist using?

    Do you have good PA support? Does the PA use separate Subs or just full range speakers?

    GrooveMonkey, you mentioned you had a loud drummer. In my experience, the only way I can use a single 4x10 cabinet with a loud drummer is if I roll off most of the lows and boost the mids. If your guitarist is using a 1x12 or a 2x12 cabinet, then a 4x10 with a decent amount of power should cut it. But if the guitarist is using a 4x12 or if you want deep lows, you probably need an additional cabinet. This is even more the case if you have poor PA support.

    Bass frequencies require more power and speaker surface area than guitar frequencies. You seem to have the power. Guitar cabinets are usually more efficient than Bass cabinets so that is one more reason to have an additional cabinet. Bass frequencies sometimes are louder at the back of a club also. So it may sound good at the soundman's position at the back but not so good on the dance floor.

    You could also try something to help your lows like a sonic maximizer or an aphex aural exciter. Both products will increase the perceived loudness of the low frequencies without increasing the power going to the cabinet (unless the extreme settings are used). They help both the close up sound and the distant sound.
    Beware products that boost lows by doubling your signal an octave lower - those frequecies below what your cabinet can produce could damage the speakers. And if the cabinet is not reproducing those frequencies you may not hear the distortion to warn you before the speakers blow.
  18. Mcrelly


    Jun 16, 2003
    Minnesota, USA
    GM, I was thinking again about your problem, is your bass cab the only cab carrying the bass signal or does the "house system" have bass speaker or subs? How big it the overall room? is it in a solid block building or warehouse type place? Do YOU really get to mix your bass into the house system?

    I remember when I got my new EA CXL-110L's (two of them) and I was on stage thinking "wow, these 10s are REALLY heavy sounding!" later while my guitar player was playing my bass I walked back (25ft) to the house mixer I could hear my cabs sound change from heavy to twang in about 10ft! Here are some possible reasons for my situation not sounding good: we were on a raised wooden stage (absorbing my bass?). I was not in the corner of the room (bass cancelation?) Even though it was a concrete floor we were still in a warehouse style building (bass leaves the room because walls are not dense enough to contain the bass). And last but not least, either I was not plugged into the mains (2-18s and 2-15s!) or the "engineer" (volunteer trainee) didn't think to turn up my bass a little in the mix.

    I wish I had a rule of thumb to tell you like:

    SQFT of Room should equal the minmum SQIN of BAss speakers used.

    maybe SQFT/2 = SQIN of speakers, so your rig would be adequate for 630 SQFT. if it is carrying all your bass, just a guess
  19. I'd say add another 15", cause I recently bought a EBS TD650 (630W) amp with a EBS 410 cabinet(800w RMS) and it sure wasn't loud enough!!

    Later that week I bought a EBS 15" to go with the 410 and it blowed me apart!!
    Sometimes I think that I have twice the volume.

    With the volume at 5 I blow 2 marshall 120 w and a very loud drummer away, I play in a metal-core band.
    I never use the P.A system.
  20. BruceWane


    Oct 31, 2002
    Houston, TX
    If you have the polarity reversed going to your speaker cab and you are in the house PA, your stage rig will be out of phase with the house PA. Result? Wherever your stage sound blends with the house sound, i.e. anywhere except on stage, your rig and the PA will try to cancel each other out. Make absolutely, positively sure that your stage rig is in phase with the PA. Sounds like this is very likely to be your problem.