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8x10 cabinets and low B and low F#

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Silverstar, Aug 16, 2002.


  1. Hi!

    This question just arose from my mind: Is an Ampeg 8x10 capable of producing a fundamental low B and, if given, low F# ?
    I know they are great for slapping but what about sub-bass.

    Thanks alot folks:)
     
  2. fast slapper

    fast slapper

    Dec 11, 2001
    Fresno, CA
    No.
     
  3. ihixulu

    ihixulu Supporting Member

    Mar 31, 2000
    getting warmer
    Fundamentals are overrated. Enough with the Jihad!

    Oh wait, I meant fundamentalists. (budum pum)

    Seriously though, as Joris posted in one of his technically illuminating threads, most of the energy of bass exists at the first harmonic an octave above the fundamental. Furthermore keep in mind that many dub and sub bass pros rely on arrays of 10's or pretty reasonable setups to accomplish their goals. Bill Laswell was recently profiled in BP and he swears by an old SVT rig. The point is not to generate fundamentals but to create the sonic illusion of BOOM.

    Yeah yeah, bgavin and other fundamentalists will argue that the bass simply doesn't sound as good without proper reproduction of the funadmental but my experience and the stuff I've read all point to managing the first overtone and the low mids as a key to a fat low sound.
     
  4. The Ampeg 810 won't reproduce the fundamental of either. You'll be hard pressed to find any cabinet that will reproduce the fundamental of the F# accurately and with authority. That's about 25Hz, right? Most big PA subs don't go that low. It's really difficult to get big SPLs at really low frequencies like that. You need lots of speaker surface and gobs of power.
    Anyway, I agree with ihixulu that you don't really need a whole lot of fundamental for deep, rich bass tone. The bass is one of the most harmonically rich instruments there is, the Ampeg 810 takes advantage of that. The B on my Stingray 5 sounds absolutely diabolical through an SVT and an 810, even though the cutoff frequency of the cabinet is about 60Hz. The growly sound that lots of us are looking for isn't a product of the fundamental as such, it comes more form the harmonic content!
     
  5. Fuzzbass

    Fuzzbass P5 with overdrive Supporting Member

    What ihixulu and Spacegoat said. Well put!
     
  6. JAUQO III-X

    JAUQO III-X Banned

    Jan 4, 2002
    CHICAGO,IL.
    Endorsing artist:see profile.
    I can get a clear Low F# from my Ashdown 500wt 2x10 combo.believe it or not.a lot of focused and clear low end can be achieved with just the right amount of headroom and volume.Ive even got very descent low end out of Ampegs(I haven't tryed an 8x10 CAB)WITH MY lOW C# string.
     
  7. IMO, you are getting a clear amount of wishful thinking.

    :D

    Low F# is 23.1 Hz, and that is way below the design criteria for a 10" musical instrument speaker. There are a few premium grade 10" subwoofers that can reach down this low, but they are several hundred dollars each. Worse, to get this low, the driver has to be terribly inefficient, and this would conflict entirely with the design of a portable combo because it would have very little volume unless provided with enormous amounts of power.

    In my opinion, the Ashdown specifications are even bigger liars than Flite. Ashdown claims -3dB at 22 Hz and 25,000 Hz. This is a complete crock of sh*t from a 130 watt combo amp with a single 12" speaker. Did you notice how Ashdown does not specify (+/- dB) over a frequency range? I could do the same thing with a Carvin RC210, and pick an arbitrary power level of -3dB at 22 Hz. What I'm not telling you is, the response is +40dB at 80 Hz.

    I'd like to see a frequency plot of the Ashdown from 22 Hz to 25,000 Hz. The plot would have to be made by somebody other than Ashdown marketing people. Making bullsh*t claims is easy... but substantiating them is a lot more difficult.

    Anybody thinking they are getting true low F# from their rig should have it measured and plotted. This will be quite revealing. What most players think is the fundamental is actually the 2nd or 3rd harmonic.
     
  8. geshel

    geshel

    Oct 2, 2001
    Seattle
    Note that he didn't say he was getting the fundamental. He just said it sounded good. :)
     
  9. I read the words "I can get a clear Low F#...", and took them at face value. Since I read these words as stating the Ashdown combo amp will produce the low F# fundamental, it is possible that others read it and take the same meaning.

    No matter, as the intent of my post is not to start a fist fight, but to clarify a point about producing the 23 Hz fundamental.

    My subs are tuned at 23 Hz and flat to 31 Hz. It is very difficult to hear 23 Hz at all, even though mine will (mostly) reproduce it. If I turn up loud enough to hear it, the fundamental is drowned out by the shaking and rattling of the walls, windows, and furnishings in the room.

    The easy way to tell for sure is hook up the Ashdown to a computer sound card. Use the freeware signal generator from my signature below, and push a 23 Hz sine wave into the cab. Gently, please... I'll wager there is nothing audible, and the only detectable indication will be the motion of the cones. This simple test will remove any harmonics that can be heard instead of the fundamental.
     
  10. Ian Hall

    Ian Hall

    May 31, 2002
    Rialto,CA
    Most people can't even hear 23hz. It has to be felt more than heard. It still is in the audible spectrum, but most people that hear a 23hz test tone think that it's just a passing train, or something of that sort. I used to have 2 12" subwoofers made by a company called Image Dynamics in my truck. Using about 1200 watts of power, and the full 2" peak to peak stroke on the subwoofers, a 23hz note is barely audible. Those 12's cost about $350 a pop(for the raw speakers, I had to build the enclosures). They sure as heck rattle everything to death, but the overtones are critical to hearing any kind of definition in a note that low. For 23hz at stage volumes, I would say something like around four 18's and a minimum of 2000 watts. Anything less than that wouldn't be worth it. My mesa powerhouse 1000(4 10's, 1 15) and 1600 watts from the PLX1602 that I just got barely does justice to the Bb at 28.something hz that my bass produces(by justice I mean making your hair vibrate from 50ft away, like any low note should). Hire some roadies.:)
     
  11. geshel

    geshel

    Oct 2, 2001
    Seattle
    Most people *can* hear 23Hz. They may not be used to it, so they don't recognize what they're hearing. But, if their ears aren't damaged, they can hear 23Hz before they start to feel it.

    Check this out:

    http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=598566&highlight=sine+midi#post598566

    Play it with good (40mm driver or so) headphones, or a setup with a decent subwoofer (not too loud!). It takes a different kind of listening to pick up the F#, and for me the jury is still out on the C#.

    Also, your truck stereo story means nothing without knowing the design of the enclosures the woofers were in. If it was a ported box tuned to 35Hz, all you'd hear at 23Hz would be air whooshing around, no matter how much power you put in. Also, it is likely that wind noise and rattles from having the cones move so much likely made it difficult to hear any fundamental that low (like bgavin mentioned :)).
     
  12. FalsehoodBass

    FalsehoodBass

    Jul 22, 2001
    Denver, CO
    yea.. i think fundamentals are overrated too. Somebody did a plot of an open E string, frequency vs. intensity a while back. The 3rd and 4th harmonics were significantly louder than the fundamental. Plus if you have a bass w/ a bolt-on neck, the fundamental of low notes is cut off even more. Top luthiers still make bolt ons, why? because they SOUND good.

    Ampeg isn't known for being hi-fi by any means. A lot of people think that it sounds good though. I think the origional question has been answered that an 810 won't accurately reproduce the fundamental of a low B. I think the point should be added that lots of people don't think that this is a bad thing.

    Silverstar... if you want an 810 that can go lower, check out some of the ported designs. Swr's 810 is ported, and Eden's is as well. If you want to reproduce the fundamental on a low F#, get a crossover or an ELF system, a dedicated low end power amp, and some subwoofers.
     
  13. JAUQO III-X

    JAUQO III-X Banned

    Jan 4, 2002
    CHICAGO,IL.
    Endorsing artist:see profile.
    Im not here to dispute the indifferences about how low I can go for one it is to much to detail.but for the record I am one of the early users of the low F# string in wrecking my brain and causing brain clogs for some of the companies I deal with to assist in achieving the overall proper aspects of this open note led me on my quest to go lower therefore I worked with D.Markley on the Low C# string.I love the fact that there are those who find it hard to believe it just gives me more fuel to continue doing what I do.Im taking my time working on my first solo recording and you can bet I will have the low F# and the low C# right there in the groove.as for now don't get so upset and bent out of shape if you can barely hear the fundumentals of your low B.do the research the books don't always have the answer.I base my findings off of hands on experience.so have fun all you non believers :)
     
  14. geshel

    geshel

    Oct 2, 2001
    Seattle
    Not really a good idea - ported designs roll off much more quickly below their cutoff, and have less control over the cone down there too. You're much more likely to blow a typical ported bass cab with 20-30Hz material than an SVT.

    As an addendum to my previous post, when I play the MIDI file here at work, I can't hear the F# at all on the cheap headphones. And, suprise suprise, on the 3-way Altec Lansing system, the E is the first one to go! Almost inaudible, and that's at 40Hz. Just demonstrates the tradeoff of a small "subwoofer" (this one is about the size of a breadbox :) ) of the type so common these days.
     
  15. Ian Hall

    Ian Hall

    May 31, 2002
    Rialto,CA
    Yes, my truck story does mean something in that I was trying to make an example of the amount of power and air movement that it takes to produce an audible 23hz note. And yes, many people that I have encountered have trouble hearing anything below 25hz, and nearly no-one that I have encountered can hear below 19hz. If you look at what I was talking about, I meant a 23hz fundamental, NOT overtones. Our 20-20khz hearing range is not pressed in stone- everyone is different.

    As for the box that my 12's were in, it was sealed, 1cu ft per driver, and made out of chicken wire and concrete(1.5 inches thick, and several hundred pounds), and used in a competition system that cost more than a couple of glockenklang rigs. So don't be so quick to pigeonhole me. There were no "air whooshing" sounds. That amount of cone movement is common now in competition car audio; in fact some speaker manufacturers are surpassing that. Would it sound good with a bass guitar? No. But that wasn't my point. I'm not getting bent out of shape, and I'm sure that nobody had trouble with my low B at the last show that we played, considering the people at the bar had to hold on to their beers to keep them from vibrating away. I'm also not saying that the low F is stupid, I'm just saying that at an average stage volume, you need some major huevos in your sound system to do it any justice.

    P.S. Im not trying to sound confrontational, just supporting my argument.:)
     
  16. geshel

    geshel

    Oct 2, 2001
    Seattle
    OK, thanks for the info. You'll note that I didn't actually say anything about what your system was or wasn't capable of - what I was saying is that we had no idea of that, and therefore it wasn't much of an example. With the details you just provided, now it means something.
     
  17. Ian Hall

    Ian Hall

    May 31, 2002
    Rialto,CA
    Point well taken.:)
     
  18. I think this pretty much sums it up: faith.

    :D

    It's impossible to debate religion or beliefs, but facts are certainly proveable. I invite anybody who claims fundamental response at low F# to step up and provide some facts to substantiate it. Any company investing in leading edge bass production (strings, speakers, electronics) will have a complete performance analysis of their product. After all, this is what engineers do.

    It's one set of problems getting ultra low notes INTO the system (recording device, amp, PA) because the strings and pickup have to handle those low frequencies. I have no doubt a serious amount of testing and prototyping has gone into developing strings that can deliver this result with quality.

    But... it's an entirely different matter getting those low notes OUT of the system and delivered to the ear. Premium headphones offer far more ability to deliver the ultra lows, than does a speaker. Very few home HiFi systems and and even fewer live performance rigs are capable of delivering those notes. The vast majority of listeners (99%) will never hear those low notes on the recording.

    Yes, sign me up as a non-believer. For many years now, I've done the research, the building, and hands-on testing, and I know what is involved trying to produce 23 Hz from a non-horn loaded driver.

    Ashdown publishes a 60 Hz low limit for their MAG 210T-200 2x10 cabinet, and 75 Hz for their ABM 210-H model. Based on this, I think you are hearing not low F#, but a clear 3rd harmonic (69.3 Hz) with some lower overtones. Still, I invite you to carefully hook your cab up to a legitimate 23 Hz sine wave signal and experience what you can't hear from that cabinet. That will separate facts from beliefs.
     
  19. JAUQO III-X

    JAUQO III-X Banned

    Jan 4, 2002
    CHICAGO,IL.
    Endorsing artist:see profile.
    I have nothing to prove.I think it is the non believers that has something to prove.I wonder what Bill Dickens,John Turner and any other Bassist that is seriously being an actual user of the Low F# are hearing.
     
  20. Jon Burnet

    Jon Burnet

    Jan 21, 2001
    Memphis, TN
    this is the basic agrument of art vs. science. i am of the school that if sounds good screw the paperwork. you and jauqo are arguing sounds good vs. fundamentals. 2 totally seperatable things.