A Civilized Debate on whether Jazz and Hip Hop are Compatible

open your mind unless it's already ossified

 

Wow!! I love that; it's the most well thought out expression of the way I have felt for the past few years. I'm going to use this as a signature (with credit to you of course).

 

Unfortunately, if you are referring to what I said, that's not what I said at all. I am actually exhorting you to actually go out and listen to non commercial forms of hip hop, just as you would seek out non commercial jazz. I never said you don't have the right to not like a type of music, but I do gather from the lack of detail in your stated opinions that you probably haven't listened to very much hip hop.

Don't extrapolate your misinterpration of my remark into some indictment of society.

I do agree that many of society's ills would be solved if people were taught to think and make their own decisions. A well oiled mind is the best tool.

However, I'm getting a vibe of someone who has inculcated certain ideas of what is good and what isn't without doing the proper research to form a credible opinion.

You have the right not to like hip hop, but I think you don't like what you think it is.

 

That's fair. I guess we should be talking about why you think the two genres are mutually exclusive, not whether you like hip hop or not. I have pre-empted myself from any retort about "how would you know my experience with hiphop" (even though i've had plenty) by being presumptious about your background. Sorry, I don't want to flame, just to point out that there is a difference between saying something sucks and saying something sucks and backing it up.

 

Where the heck did I say anything to the contrary of this? Please respect my right to question the basis of people's opinions however, people have a lot of stupid opinions sometimes. In MY opinion.

I wonder what it is about hip hop that makes people be so categorical about it.

I'll leave it at that, and I'll remember never to question someone's opinion on this board again...I mean give me a break, obviously everyone is entitled to an opinion. The great thing about America is that I can disagree with what I preceive as categorical and over simplified opinions. That's an opinion too!

What would happen if I said JAZZ sounds like unmitigated crap? Or is it a loftier artform? What if I said hip hop is the descendant of jazz? Would you break out in hives?

 

I would just like to add, that as I said before the real point here is why would "jazz hip hop" be "self-contradictory?

I think this implies an elitism with many jazzers that has nothing to do with opinion. You can not like hip hop but still concede that the genres can be fused into another thing you don't like.

But saying they don't fit together is implying that you have a priveleged knowledge of what jazz is and isn't, and what those playing it hear it as. This is the primary problem with with many jazzers as I know them in this day and age - some sort of tacit agreement to apply artifical boundaries. Correct me if I am wrong, but all jazz really means is spontaneous musical expression. It also traditionally implies some play on either popular tunes or traditional structures and theory - creating a tension between the reconizable and the unreconizable.

But nowhere did I read the "jazz and hip hop are self contradictory" bylaw.

 

1) For the THIRD time: Why are jazz and hip hop self contradictory?

2) Why is it nitpicky to try to dig deeper into the nature of two genres and whether they can intersect?

Out of conflict, true dialog will arise.

You're telling me I am petty and basically saying I have no right to question your opinion. But I do! That's the thing! I DO! You don't have to respond, but you choose to do so, and to embed your little slings and arrows into your response.

THREE times I have tried to say enougbh about the opinion thing and to try to get an educated response as to issue #1 above. No one responds. If there can't be a justification other than the justification that I am somehow being nitpicky, then I feel it MUST be a valid question.

 

Thanks for the response. However the question isn't whether jazz and hip hop are somehow the same, but whether they are compatible. Jazz successfully brought in and played with popular music, funk music, and many other styles, but it can't do the same with hip hop? Hip hop pulled in pop music, funk, metal, but it can't do the same with jazz?

Yeah, I am familiar with all the music you describe, and definitely with the Roots. I don't need a lesson. I also know that early hip hop artists used the funkiest break beats they could find to rap on, and the idea of the groove trancends both jazz and hip hop. As you yourself note, many musicians have taken this a step further with live instrumentation and good workingman's rhthym sections - oddly double bass is one of the best sounding intstruments in this context. So yeah, they are two different genres, but I think for the above and for many other reasons, they work very well together. I have heard jazz pulled into hip hop and hip hop pulled into rap. Both can work exceedlingly well.

IN MY OPINION.

 

Now that you have successfully stated your opinion(s), I can finally disagree with them. To say that both (all, you imply)hip hop and (all, you imply)contemporary music are devoid of melody is so patently untrue it is laughable. To say hip hop has nothing jazz can use is once again laughable, because even if I were to concede your point that it has no melody, there are plenty of advanced harmonic and rhythmic components that have nothing to do with melody.

Also interesting to note this: "And now that David has attempted to answer your question, you say that we're still not getting the point. Maybe you just don't like our opinions?". David didn't send that explanation until after I said you guys weren't getting the point. His previous explanation hadn't answered my question at all, but rather gave a overview of the history of hip hop and why it is different than jazz, not why it might not be compatible with it.

Also, for the record, I am not questioning your opinion because you don't agree with me. I am simply questioning these opinions because they were presented with unananimity, and so quickly. Which makes me suspicious. And there wasn't a lot in the way of backup info. Not to mention, Don's original point wasn't presented as an opinion, but as fact, e.g.: "self-contradictory".

Finally I am questioning this because it is so ludicrous to me. i think jazz needs fresh ideas and air just like anything else, and I don't know why everyone is so quick to throw a blanket on that.

 

Yeah I was just at practice. Ok Dave, urinate off to you too, you self important phallus. Talk to you later. By the way the reason there is some good jazz out there is because there *are* some people who listen to new ideas. Just like anything else.