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a question of ethics

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous [BG]' started by willgroove2, Oct 18, 2005.


  1. willgroove2

    willgroove2

    Aug 16, 2003
    chicago IL
    Endorsing Artist;Essential sound products,Dunlop, Ergo Instruments
    just got off the phone with a band leader and i must say it was one of the oddist conversations i have had in a long time.backstory;i work with this guys band from time to time,he does a few club dates and corporate gigs.the first time he called me it was a last minute call for a gig that night,it didn't pay what i normaly ask for but i didn't have a gig and it was only $25.00 under what my mininum is so i did it.after the gig he offered me several date's some i took,later i did a little checking with some friends (in chicago that's not hard to do,everybody knows somebody who knows somebody)i got several warnings about this guy from several different people.most of them had to do with his bandleading skill's but some them had to do with his slow payment for gig's.i did a gig with him and it took him about a month to pay me after many phone call's and lies from him about sending the money.i told him that i only give bandleaders one chance to mess up with me about money and that was his one chance and if he wanted me to work with him he better not do it again.about a month ago he called to talk about some dates and asked if i knew any keyboard players,i gave him one of my guy's # and we ended up on the gig together.he was very impressed by my friend and told me that and thanked me several times.the next week i worked another gig with him and as of today(3 weeks) he still has not paid me.so i called my friend the keyboard player and asked him if he had any more dates with this guy.he said yes and i told him about the fact that i hadn't gotten paid and was getting the run around from this guy and to watch out for this guy because he's shady.my friend said thanks for letting me know that,called the guy and canceled all the dates he had with the guy.10min after that i get a call from the guy(after not being able to get him on the phone for 2 weeks)telling me i was wrong for warning my friend and telling him that he hadn't paid me.I was like what the??? and asked him about my money.he yelled you'll get your money soon and hung up.so my question is;was i wrong? i don't think so because the keyboard player is a good friend who i have known for years and i would want someone to warn me,what do you guy's think?
     
  2. RhythmBassist01

    RhythmBassist01

    Aug 31, 2005
    Before I play a gig, I clearly state (verbally or in writing) that I'm to be payed on the day of the gig. No expection. If I hear bad comments about the leader/organiser, I stipulate that payment is in advance, otherwise I don't do the gig.

    There are prenty of people who are very unethical in their approach to musicanship. I always say that if you want a good name in scene, it pays to work in a profressional manner. I work very had to keep my reputation in tact. Mainly because I have many many years of giging in my local scene. and there's always muso's that may want to work with you.
     
  3. Sounds like its time to insist on payment up front. You were right to tell the keyboard guy. If this guy want's to avoid problems, he can pay his people promptly. He can stop at the bank before the gig, get sidemen's money if they pay by check. He can write you guys a check the day of the gig.

    If he's so close to the edge he can't afford to do that, sooner or later he's going to need your money more than you do. And you won't get paid.

    Now you've pissed him off, he'll have an excuse to screw you. If I were you, (assuming he actually does pay you for last gig so there IS a next gig), next time he calls with work say you want the money that night or don't bother.

    Randy
     
  4. bluemonk

    bluemonk

    Dec 17, 2002
    Michigan
    Sounds to me like you just responded sensibly to an icky smell. Oh, and I teach ethics (really!) and 'icky smell' is a technical term :smug: .
    Sounds like the bandleader was acting defensively. Maybe you're on to something, and he knows it!!
    Forget about it.
     
  5. willgroove2

    willgroove2

    Aug 16, 2003
    chicago IL
    Endorsing Artist;Essential sound products,Dunlop, Ergo Instruments
    the funny thing is i have been gigging for 20yrs in all different types of circimstances and this type of thing still happen's.one of the things i have been preaching for years is that we as sidemen have got to work together and not let bandleader's mess us over.Im speaking as a freelancer not a member of a band,one of the things guy like the guy im talking about count on is that people don't talk to each other about thing's like this.like i said in my original post, in chicago it's hard to not know someone who knows someone else so dude is running out of people to mess over.
     
  6. tplyons

    tplyons

    Apr 6, 2003
    Madison, NJ
    sounds like you did the right thing to me, you're providing information to an individual who's involved in the situation, not smearing his name all over a public forum or something of the sort. what this fellow chooses to do with it is his choice.
     
  7. Hopefully the band leader learned a lesson. If I was the keyboard player I probably would not have said I heard it from you, but then again the band leader would think so anyway. I probably would have cancelled for some other reason, not say well my friend says you don't pay.
     
  8. willgroove2

    willgroove2

    Aug 16, 2003
    chicago IL
    Endorsing Artist;Essential sound products,Dunlop, Ergo Instruments
    it get's better;dude just sent me a email saying in short that i should get him another keyboard player.one of the only reasons i worked with him after the first gig was because he had some people on the gig that are very active on the limited chicago jingle scene.because i am working very hard at becoming a jingle composer these day's(done a lot of freelance work lately)i thought this would be a chance at getting to know some of those guy's better on a personal level because that's what that biz is built on but not one of those guys has been on anymore of the gigs
     
  9. RLT

    RLT

    Jul 10, 2004
    South Central OH
    Well that tells you something right there. Some times playing with a band leader like that ges you lumped in as one of "his" people in others minds. This can hurt you more then it helps you.
     
  10. Bob Lee (QSC)

    Bob Lee (QSC) In case you missed it, I work for QSC Audio! Gold Supporting Member Commercial User

    Jul 3, 2001
    Costa Mesa, Calif.
    Technical Communications Developer, QSC Audio
    If the bandleader doesn't want to be known as a very slow payer, then his course of action should be to pay promptly, not bitch at musicians who warn others about his slow payments. Tough for him. His problem is of his own making, but he apparently wants to blame someone else.

    You did right. It's always easier for people to use you if you let them do so. It's harder for them to use you if you make sure there are consequences.
     
  11. mikemulcahy

    mikemulcahy

    Jun 13, 2000
    The Abyss
    The only solution is an open hand slap in the mouth.

    Mike ;)
     
  12. You can usually get an attorney to make a call or write a letter pretty cheaply, and you would be surprised at how quickly pocketbooks open up when that happens.
     
  13. JimmyM

    JimmyM Supporting Member

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    It seems that there is a certain type of bandleader that thinks that whatever they do is fine because they're the one giving you the gig. Some manifest it in yelling at you in front of crowds onstage (in the process of quitting one of those), some manifest it in not allowing anyone in the band any say about anything, some manifest it in taking their sweet time to pay you. I give bandleaders two weeks to pay me tops. If it takes any longer, they better have a good reason or I will never work with them again and I will badmouth them to anyone who will listen. You did the right thing.
     
  14. Now he wants you to reccomend yet another person who ain't gonna get paid? Sounds like just what you need for your reputation.
     
  15. cheezewiz

    cheezewiz

    Mar 27, 2002
    Ohio
    First of all, punctuation and capitalization are your friends. That was PAINFUL to read. Secondly, you didn't do anything wrong. You were right to warn your keyboard player friend. I wouldn't play for that guy either.
     
  16. Gard

    Gard Commercial User

    Mar 31, 2000
    Greensboro, NC, USA
    General Manager, Roscoe Guitars
    I like his nerve. :spit:

    ...let me see if this is right...

    First, he does the wrong thing.

    Then, he blames you for him doing it (essentially), when you do the right thing.

    Finally, he expects you to find him someone else for him to do the wrong thing to.

    ...bandleaders like this should be castrated so they can't breed.

    :ninja:
     
  17. DaftCat

    DaftCat

    Jul 26, 2004
    Medicine Hat

    I agree with you both. Of course, never say anything behind one's back you don't have the balls to say to their own face.

    Screw him. As someone else said, you don't want to be perceived as one of his players anyway.
     
  18. willgroove2

    willgroove2

    Aug 16, 2003
    chicago IL
    Endorsing Artist;Essential sound products,Dunlop, Ergo Instruments
    sorry I don't type very well and when i post im usually in my studio taking a break to surf the net so im a little distracted.I don't think it kept people from getting the point but, i will try to do better so not to cause you pain ;)
     
  19. +1!!! You didn't do anything wrong. I'd definately let my friends know to watch out for this guy! Make sure you get your money, then cut this guy loose and don't have any more contact!

    DaftCat is right; you don't need to be known as one of that guy's players! Chances are, the people you're trying to meet have heard the same crap about this guy, too, and you don't need his reputation following you around.