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Adding midrange speaker or tweeter to a 1x15cab

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Ashtray666, Sep 9, 2018.


  1. Hello,

    Just made an account 30 minutes ago after spending the last two days reading/ learning off this site.

    My question is, right now I daisy chain a 4x10” cab with a 1x15” cab. I do not have a crossover or anything fancy yet. I want to add either a tweeter or small midrange speaker to the 1x15” so that I dont have half my heads output going to just one speaker and the other half dispersed between the 4 10’s, I want to be able to turn up my head without losing tone and or having a stupid loud 15” and the 4x10” doing nothing. So If anyone could decipher what I am trying to do... Please do lend me your knowledge. Oh and if I am even able to wire it and not change the impedance..

    4x10” handles 400w continuous
    1x15” handles 500w rms
    (both are 8ohm)

    Planning on using an Ampeg svt-4 pro.

    (right now I use markbass 250w 4ohm, but the question applies to the use of the svt4)

    Thanks!
     
  2. DukeLeJeune

    DukeLeJeune rational romantic mystic cynical idealist Supporting Member Commercial User

    Nov 24, 2008
    Princeton, Texas
    Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
    Welcome to TalkBass!

    If I understand correctly, you want to run an 8-ohm (400-watt) 410 in parallel with an 8-ohm (500 watt) 115. So far so good.

    And you want to add a midrange or tweeter to the 115 cab so that you "don't have half my heads output going to just one speaker and the other half dispersed between the 4 10’s, I want to be able to turn up my head without losing tone and or having a stupid loud 15” and the 4x10” doing nothing."

    I think you may have a misconception somewhere.

    Given the power handling ratings of your two cabs, you WANT half of the power going to the single 115, and the other half being divided between the four 10's. The 410 cab will very likely be louder than the 115, but even if not, it certainly won't be "doing nothing".

    Now if you want to add a mid or a tweeter to the 115 for the purpose of improving the tone of that cab, that makes more sense. In that case, we'd need as many specifics about the 115 cab as you can provide - make and model of the cab, and ideally make and model of the woofer.

    The nominal impedance won't change because we'll bring in the midrange or tweeter up where the woofer's impedance is already much higher than 8 ohms, and the crossover filter on the midrange or tweeter will in turn keep its impedance very high down in the region where the woofer's impedance is around 8 ohms. So the impedance curve will change, but will still be well within the limits for an "8 ohm" cab.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  3. @DukeLeJeune,

    Thanks for replying! A lot of the pages I’ve read said “pairing a 4x10” with a 1x15” will not allow you to use the 4x10” full potential” so I assumed I’d run into that Issue. Anyways, Back to the cab.

    Frequency Response: 60 to 3k Hz
    Useable Low Frequency Bandwith: 42 Hz (-10dB)
    Drivers: 1 15” PS15C Woofer
    And again 8ohm 500w

    Internet told me the woofer is made by ‘Eminence’

    If any of this info helps, what should I put in with it? And how would I wire it to not change the nominal impedance?
     
  4. DukeLeJeune

    DukeLeJeune rational romantic mystic cynical idealist Supporting Member Commercial User

    Nov 24, 2008
    Princeton, Texas
    Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
    Thank you for that information.

    Seems to be a woofer made for Carvin by Eminence. Nice cast frame. Looks like Eminence's 80 ounce magnet, can't tell the voice coil diameter, might be either a Delta Pro or Kappa Pro class motor, but with a different cone. My guess is Kappa Pro class, based on the 3 kHz top end (the smaller diameter voice coil of the Delta Pro class probably goes higher, but not necessarily). Nice woofer either way.

    [EDIT - see agedhorse's comments about this woofer below. Looks like I was badly mistaken!]

    Do you have a particular tone goal in mind?

    Which is more your style: Slapping, or overdrive?
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  5. @DukeLeJeune

    I believe I saw online that the coil diameter is 2”.

    I play in a punk band so the 15” was nice cause I can finally be heard with two very loud 100w tube amps.

    So I got good body but I dont want my tone too bassy when it’s turned up. I need it to be more smooth, defined and less of a gap from the low frequencies and the high frequencies. (hope that makes sense)

    With the punk band I play clean and distorted with a ProCo RAT pedal. Biggest Influence for ‘punk’ tone would be rancid.

    Been playing just over a year, and I am now learning techniques like slap and other genres from funk, jazz, rock, oldies, R&B and Blues.

    Does any of this Information help?
     
  6. DukeLeJeune

    DukeLeJeune rational romantic mystic cynical idealist Supporting Member Commercial User

    Nov 24, 2008
    Princeton, Texas
    Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
    Thank you, that helps a lot.

    "Smooth and defined" takes a bit of finesse. Not knowing what the woofer's frequency response looks like, this will be a roll of the dice.

    How much space is available on the front of the 115 cab? To be more precise, how big a square (horn) do you have room for? And, how big a circle (cone mid) do you have room for?

    Let me mull it over a bit and hopefully I'll have a suggestion by Monday evening.
     
  7. It’s a compact Cab. 25” wide. Each corner has room to mount a 4” diameter speaker (at largest). That’s about all the free space it has to offer.

    Would it make any sense to add three 8ohm cones or whatever and wire them in the series parallel so it remains 8ohms?

    As well, thank you for taking the time to help me.
     
  8. Yahboy

    Yahboy

    May 21, 2008
    How about Hartke Hydrive 15 driver?
     
  9. FugaziBomb

    FugaziBomb

    Jun 5, 2017
    Sell the 1x15, get a matching 4x10 to the one you have now. Mixing speaker sizes won't give you any benefits, but it will introduce a ton of complications. A lot of new players think that 15s put out more low end than 10s and that's really not the case. My 8x10 set up sounds massive down in the 60hz - 100hz range.
     
    Lobster11 and el murdoque like this.
  10. el murdoque

    el murdoque

    Mar 10, 2013
    Germany
    While this sounds like an interesting project, I'd recommend that you do some reading on the topic of mixed speaker sizes and what talkbass has to say about it. In a nutshell:
    To make bass loud, you need to move air. This is done by speaker cones moving back and forth. The two major factors here are a) how big the cone surface area is and b) how far it travels.
    When you compare a 410 with a 115 that play in the same ballpark (not a high end one vs. a super cheap one),
    the 410 will (in most cases) be louder and have a lot more bass at high volumes than the 115 has.

    1x15 has roughly the same speaker surface than 2x10, so 4x10 has roughly twice the surface.

    This means when you daisychain a 410 and a 115, the 410 will be louder and bassier than the 115. The 115 will most likely be the limiting factor because it usually farts out long before the 410 reaches its limit.




    So you'd need a crazy good 15 woofer that offers a lot of travel and can handle massive lows,
    paired with a crossover for such a speaker that cuts off at the right frequency and a midrange driver that takes it from there - then your 115 could become a lot louder and clearer. As long as the volume and dimensions of the box fit the speakers perfectly. And the vents are the right size and position.

    Just drilling a hole in there, fixing a 6" midrange driver and solder it into the whole thing will be the fast route towards playing a single 410 sitting on a broken 15/6 cab.
     
    Lobster11, Zooberwerx and FugaziBomb like this.
  11. jumbodbassman

    jumbodbassman Supporting Member

    Dec 28, 2009
    Stuck in traffic -NY & CT
    Born Again Tubey
    check out green boy posts. many models have a mid speaker and crossover network.
     
  12. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    Wait a minute, there are some very inaccurate assumptions being made here...

    First of all, that Carvin driver uses a 2.5" VC with an Xmax of 1.8mm and a conventional C66 type surround. No way is this driver going to be capable of anywhere near 500 watts RMS (or 600 watts as they now claim).

    That said, is the 115 cabinet a stock Carvin cabinet or some kind of homebrew?

    I would suggest that the real world power handling at low frequencies of your 15" driver is around 200-250 watts RMS, so this is one of the more important parts in determining if it's suitable for your larger amp, and if it's a good (or at least acceptable) match with your 410. With your current amp, it's likely ok but with a larger amp I thinkl you are headed towards "driver disappointment territory".
     
  13. DukeLeJeune

    DukeLeJeune rational romantic mystic cynical idealist Supporting Member Commercial User

    Nov 24, 2008
    Princeton, Texas
    Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
    Unfortunately I don't know of anything that would fit into that space that I'd recommend.

    I suppose you could use a Eminence APT-80 with their 3.5 kHz highpass filter. Or their 5 kHz highpass filter - that would be my choice between the two.

    But it looks like I was wrong about the woofer:

    Thanks for correcting my mistake!

    I would have expected much greater x-max from a woofer that only went up to 3 kHz, hence my inaccurate assumptions.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  14. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    It's not a woofer I would choose for a project, and I agree it's an odd tradeoff between HF extension and Xmax but that's one way to improve sensitivity. I wonder what the actual moving mass is, and what they might have done to the dust cap/cone to reduce high end (though the spec. could also be suspect)
     
    DukeLeJeune likes this.
  15. arbiterusa

    arbiterusa

    Sep 24, 2015
    San Diego, CA
    "My question is, right now I daisy chain a 4x10” cab with a 1x15” cab."

    It took eight posts in for the inevitable. Next up: hectoring lectures on the physics of "mixed drivers". Some of you people are worse about mixed drivers than the Klan is about mixed marriages.
     
    NigelD likes this.
  16. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    I think you missed the point. The problem isn't necessarily mixing the drivers, but the likely unsuitability of that particular 15" driver for this application. See post #12.
     
  17. higain617

    higain617

    Sep 12, 2013
    WA
    If you're committed to using that stack, you would want to find a head that can bi-amp. The only bi-amp Ampeg I know of was the SVT400. If I remember correctly, Matt Freeman used 15's.

    Edit: SVT 4 PRO does bi-amp. My mistake.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  18. Hello,

    I am here again. I read everything I appreciate everyone’s inputs and knowledge on this subject. My situation is like this because, all I have this the 4x10” and the 1x15”.

    Purchasing an SVT-4 Pro has put a bit of damage to my funds. Im ballin on a budget.

    (So I will be running Bi-Amp and using the built in crossover)

    My reasoning behind adding something to the 15” would be so I can have more room to turn up before it ‘farts’ out, if that makes sense. I do still want it to have purpose though. I would like to wire in a control switch for it if possible.

    Not necessarily ‘building’ my final tour ready rig, I just want to make what I have function properly until I can afford an 8x10”.


    *As of now the only genres I play live is Punk/Hardcore in drop D and uh not sure what to call it but it’s in B standard/ drop A*

    Again, thanks for takin the time.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  19. DukeLeJeune

    DukeLeJeune rational romantic mystic cynical idealist Supporting Member Commercial User

    Nov 24, 2008
    Princeton, Texas
    Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
    Ah.

    Adding a mid or tweeter to your 115 will have zero effect on how much room you have before it farts out.

    Based on agedhorse's information about your woofer's modest x-max (linear excursion), combined with your tuning down to drop A, imo that woofer is in over its head. You need a woofer with much greater x-max, and you may need to modify your port's tuning, if it's a ported cab. Drop A calls for a lower tuning frequency than most cabs have just to help stave off fartout.

    You did say earlier that you "don't want your tone too bassy when it's turned up". That is good news, because it means you don't necessarily need a lot of output down at the first overtone of drop A (55 Hz). Loud deep bass is a very expensive commodity.

    I understand that money is an issue. Could you realistically consider changing woofers?

    If so, let us know your cabinet and port dimensions, including port depth.
     
  20. Use the 4X10 for the "low", and the 1X15 for the "high"
     

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