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advice / opinions on a 2 x 12 build

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Matt B, Aug 26, 2012.


  1. Matt B

    Matt B

    Mar 31, 2012
    New Zealand
    Hey,

    First post here for me... I have been thinking about building a cab for a while, I have read too much about it and spent hours mucking round with winISD. Ive figured I need to start building. In all my reading most threads point back to 'just build a fearful' which i will do in time but I want to try things out for a bit and learn a bit...

    I was planning on putting a 2 x 12 cabinet together with a Delta 12 LFA in a ported chamber and a beta 12 LTA (the one with the wizzer cone) in a sealed chamber to help out a bit higher up.

    I am not fan of tweeters and will often turn them off or down if there is the option.

    So 2 questions for those that know.

    1. Is this a bad idea for any reason?
    2. What point I would be best setting the crossover?

    I look forward to any advice.

    Cheers,
    Matt
     
  2. qts

    qts

    May 15, 2006
    Ijmuiden-holland
  3. Matt B

    Matt B

    Mar 31, 2012
    New Zealand
    Thanks qts,

    That thread gave some helpful thoughts on the Delta 12LF but as far as I can see the beta 12lta is quite different to the other drivers in that thread (although it is from the Beta range).

    So are you thinking what I am proposing is not going to work too well?

    Also, if it is not a completely duff combination at what point shall i cross them over. In winISD they both even out at -0dB at around 300hZ so should it be around there to get a smooth crossover? Or am i way off the mark in my thinking?

    Cheers,
    Matt
     
  4. wcriley

    wcriley

    Apr 5, 2010
    Western PA
    WinISD only models response below 200Hz.
    Above that you need to use the manufacturer's charts.
     
  5. Matt B

    Matt B

    Mar 31, 2012
    New Zealand
    Oh, I did not realize that! Back to the drawing board then I guess... Seems obvious now you mention it and looking at the graphs though.
     
  6. majortoby

    majortoby

    Jul 2, 2009
    Tampa, Fl USA
    Why not two 2512's and a nice horn? That'd cover you for a wide variety of settings.
     
  7. qts

    qts

    May 15, 2006
    Ijmuiden-holland
    Hi Matt,

    To be short and not jump to deep in there, if you do understand the explanation in the thread, the D12LF and B102 are matching well together, so why considering the wizzercone and a crossover
    The advantage you will get is, you don't need a crossover for this configuration, both will overlap smooth in the frequency range and balance out well in spl, but some trade offs are size,weight and euro's
     
  8. Matt B

    Matt B

    Mar 31, 2012
    New Zealand
    Thanks qts
    Still got a lot to learn here. I read through a couple of times and got the gist but for what ever reason I was keen on a tweeter less 2x12 but have been looking in the wrong direction so far I guess.

    If I was to look at going to either deltalite II 2512 or bass lite 2012 which is better.

    I will be putting a 100w tube head through it and want a good bit of punch and growl when pushed...

    Thanks for the help and please excuse the ignorance

    Cheers
    Matt
     
  9. qts

    qts

    May 15, 2006
    Ijmuiden-holland
  10. One of most informational parts about the above thread is the inclusion of cone motion by frequency.
    Pe and Vd are debated here without end, but cone excursion is the real limiter in nearly all cases.

    I've read Janne Ahonen's speaker math analysis papers.
    He is the math brains behind WinISD.
    The man's advanced education and methods leads me to believe WinISD is accurate.

    Where the jury is out to lunch, is the wide discrepancies between various design programs.
    The BassBox program shows in-limits cone excursion at 190w.
    I've not looked at WinISD, but my program definitely disagrees with BassBox.
    I get about 51w maximum before exceeding xmax around 77 Hz.
    You might try using Bullock's DOSbox. It is very old and clunky, but accurate. I use it occasionally as a check comparison.

    Another problem with the tutorial design is the very limited low frequency response.
    2512-II has a smooth frequency response to 2500 Hz, so a 6" will only gain you another octave to 5000 Hz or thereabouts.
    The 6" has the advantage of a higher beaming frequency at 2700 Hz.

    IMO, skip the Beta and whizzer cone.
    12" drivers beam severely at the frequencies of interest.
    The OP does not like tweeters, so try the 2512 alone in the above box.
    This is a fast and simple build, and may suit the OP requirements.
     
  11. Matt B

    Matt B

    Mar 31, 2012
    New Zealand
    Qts and bgavin,

    Thanks again. That thread is great I will read it through a few more times no doubt over the next couple of days.

    I am thinking I will do a 2x12 with the delta lites.

    I searched talk bass for hours but never hit that thread you shared so thank you.

    Cheers
    Matt
     
  12. will33

    will33

    May 22, 2006
    austin,tx
    A pair of 12" deltalites makes a pretty formidable rig in a small package. That's what my home made cabs are. With my amps that are biamp capable, I cross them to a 6" around 800-1khz. When playing other amps, I just run the 12's full range. After getting used to having the 6" in there, I miss the spread and extra octave of extension it gives. Find myself bending the eq differently to get some of that sound back, especially when standing beside the rig, or using it to play a room by itself. If I'd never heard the 6" thing, I probably wouldn't miss it. The deltalites by themselves are a pretty nice balance of lows vs. mids vs. top vs. overall output/spl. I would not want to trade much of one to get any more of the other.

    If you want to mess with them in WinISD, mine are currently in 2.25 cu.ft. each tuned ~44hz. I am going to rebuild them into about an even 2 cu.ft. each tuned ~41hz. I just find I don't need the extra couple hz of low extension and would instead favor an even more compact rig. That will carry the room easy in any typical bar, or easily play the stage/front row outdoors or anywhere you have PA support.

    They're a good inbetween that can kind of go both ways, either fullrange, or on the lowend of a 2-way system. Cost/budget is always a concern. Kappalite HO's may be a little more ideal for fullrange use, but not by much. Kappalite LF's can take more flogging down low, but also have lower sensitivity and require a mid to carry the top half. The deltalite seems to just plain work for all situations. If you are not cranking a large amp, the basslite s2012 is also a nice driver. Little more warm/fat, not quite as middy as the deltalite...cheaper too.
     
  13. Matt B

    Matt B

    Mar 31, 2012
    New Zealand
    looks like i will order some deltalites this weekend...

    just to be clear, can someone please confirm that when looking at the volume of a cab the stated volume excludes the volume of the speaker itself and of the volume occupied by the port / ports?

    Thanks,
    MAtt
     
  14. yes, that's Vb, or "Box Volume".

    +1 on the 2512-IIs, I've used them in a build very similar to Will33s but full range w/o the 6" and have been very happy with the tone and volume, very "Goldilocks" :D

    Edit: here's a shot of the cabs, it's really two 1-12s that clamp together. The other cab is it's two 1-10 predecessor on a gig box, no longer use that, though.

    Family Photo 3.
     
  15. Matt B

    Matt B

    Mar 31, 2012
    New Zealand
    When you say 'goldilocks' you don't mean kings-x 'goldilocks' do you?
     
  16. LOL, no, I meant "....and this one is just right...." in terms of balance of bass response to mids to highs, volume, weight, etc. Great all around driver.
     
  17. Matt B

    Matt B

    Mar 31, 2012
    New Zealand
    Ha, OK. that is a good connection to goldilocks too...
     
  18. will33

    will33

    May 22, 2006
    austin,tx
    Yes, the cab volume is the net, empty airspace in the box. Must allow for everything that takes up space in there, including the driver itself.

    And yes, they so work very well fullrange by themselves. When I think I can use a little more top end, it's usually time for new strings.
     
    PawleeP likes this.
  19. I built this to a client's spec as he was looking for a more old school sound since he has a 62 P w/very worn rw's.

    If it were for me I'd definitely go w/the 6" as I've come to appreciate the better dispersion at higher frequencies on stage, much as I like the highs as is w/the 2512s :cool:
     
  20. will33

    will33

    May 22, 2006
    austin,tx
    I've come to like it as well and do miss it when it's not there. That would hold true for most any bass cab and isn't specific to the Deltalite. It has a good balance of lower and upper extension for a single driver. Gaining much more of one would give up too much of the other, IMO.
     

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