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Aguilar vs. Acme, for hi-fi & efficiency

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by MarkMcCombs, Nov 21, 2001.


  1. Okay, in looking for a good 4x10, and keeping in mind I want it to be somewhat hi-fi, I think I'm down to these 2 cabs. But it seems too easy once I get to this point. Both sound great, I'm told, but the Aguilar is way more efficient, and costs way less. What gives?

    I would use this with my (1971) 100-watt Ampeg v4, so efficiency is very important. I don't like driving the amp to distortion, or at least very little if any. I just LOVE the sound of the amp clean, but need more volume. Previously, I had a Bag End 2x10, but it wasn't loud enough. No, I'm not getting an SVT.

    Thanks,

    Mark
     
  2. Turock

    Turock Supporting Member

    Apr 30, 2000
    Melnibone
    I don't think the Acme is going to meet your requiremennts, especially since you need efficiency and only have 100 watts.
     
  3. geshel

    geshel

    Oct 2, 2001
    Seattle
    Likewise. My experience with my B1 and 125 watts, and everything I've ever heard about the bigger Acme cabinets (quite a number of people push >1000 watts into the B4!), tells me that you'd need something different.

    That said, the two (Acme and Aguilar) don't sound at all the same I believe. Acme has a more natural "hi-fi" (in the true sense) sound, where I think Aguilar falls more into the Eden camp of bass, treble, not much midrange pseudo-hifi. I could be wrong about Aguilar. But, check out Euphonic Audio. They have more flat-response cabinets like Acme but they are very efficient (and twice the price :) ). Uh, they stopped making the 3x10, but they do have a 2x10 which is probably quite a bit louder than the Bag End was if you want to give it a try. (I'm not sure anyway if 100 watts is going to be enough to drive any 4x10 cleanly).
     
  4. Richard Lindsey

    Richard Lindsey

    Mar 25, 2000
    Metro NYC
    As an Acme owner, I think the Acme is more hi-fi--as in accurate--than the Aguilar. I prefer that sound. That doesn't mean it's better for everybody, though.

    One thing, though: on the basis of my own experience, I'd say there's *no way* 100 W is going to be enough to get you realistic stage volume with the Acme. 100 W into an Acme is underpowered for most gigs I can think of.
     
  5. Steve

    Steve

    Aug 10, 2001
    You have no shot at an acme with 100w. You'll end up square waving your signal and burning the voice coils. Get the Aggie.
     
  6. Captain Awesome

    Captain Awesome

    Apr 2, 2001
    PDX
    Wouldn't a 4x10 would let you get more clean volume out of an amp than a comparable 2x10?
     
  7. geshel

    geshel

    Oct 2, 2001
    Seattle
    Not really. If the 4x10 is essentially two of the comparable 2x10s in parallel, then

    1. The impedance will be halved, which might get you more power from your amp (but this is no special property of 4x10s, just use a 2x10 with half the impedance and the same thing occurs)

    2. There is more speaker area, which increases the efficiency of the speaker

    3. There is more mass to move (and physical resistance to overcome), which decreases the efficiency

    2 and 3 tend to cancel each other out (don't know if they do so exactly, but my guess is it is very close). Otherwise, think about it, you could keep adding speakers and it would get louder and louder! Doesn't work that way.

    So, what I should have said was: "I'm not sure anyway if 100 watts is going to be enough to drive any 4x10 to the levels people expect out of 4x10s, cleanly". I didn't mean to give the impression that it would necessarily take more power into a 4x10 to get the same volume as a 2x10, that's not true either. :D

    Also, we're assuming that the 2x10 can already handle all of the power from your amp (if it couldn't, then using a 4x10 would let you play louder, yes). 100w should fall into this category.
     
  8. Richard Lindsey

    Richard Lindsey

    Mar 25, 2000
    Metro NYC
    Actually, to a point, it *does* work that way, though probably not always to the extent predicted by theory. Going from 2 10s to 4 does tend to give you more output, all else (including impedance) being basically equal. That's why Carvin in their manual says that the easiest way to get more output is to add more speakers. That's also why when you look at the sensitivity ratings of, say, Acme speakers, the 4-10 is 3 dB more sensitive than the 2-10 (96 vs. 93). Similar situation with Eden and others. Your 2 and 3 don't quite cancel themselves out. 2 or 3 dB is a significant, though not deafening, difference.

    For a specific example, a 4 ohm Eden D210XLT has a sensitivity of 104 dB at 1 W @ 1 m, whereas a 4 ohm D410XLT has a sensitivity of 106 dB. This means that for exactly the same power input, the 4-10 gives you *2 dB more acoustic output*.
     
  9. MikeyD

    MikeyD

    Sep 9, 2000
    Actually it does. Geshel [*], you made some good points (especially #2 and #3), but in the case of adding speakers, if you could take 1 watt of power and distribute evenly it to drive 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, etc. identical speakers, the overall loudness will increase as the number goes up. The increase reflects the increasing aggregate efficiency of the array. Ultimately when you have a million (well, you get the idea) identical speakers, the efficiency approaches 100%, but will never exceed it because of thermodynamic laws and so forth (gravitivity and polarity ;) ). But the increase in efficiency diminishes with each additional speaker, so the best you can ever get out of a speaker array is <1 watt of acoustic power for 1 watt of electrical input.

    But I suppose we could design an acoustic lens to beam that one watt of acoustic power into a focal point and ignite something combustible... :D

    - Mike

    *Edit: Sorry - I had Primusdude in my original post. Fixed.
     
  10. Richard Lindsey

    Richard Lindsey

    Mar 25, 2000
    Metro NYC
    Given equivalent construction, drivers, impedance, etc, then yes, as a rule. See above. There have also been some lengthy threads on this elsewhere on TalkBass if you wanna search.
     
  11. I've got both the Aguilar and Acme 4x10s. It's kind of apples and oranges.

    The Acme sounds great, very pure and open in the ranges, though not "modern" sounding (which is what I usually associate with "hi-fi"). But it's a horrible power hog, and I wouldn't run it with less than 600-700 watts or so--I use 1200, and even that's not quite enough sometimes.

    The Aguilar is much more in the Eden/SWR vein, to my ears, though a bit smoother on top than my old Eden cabs. It's a lot louder and more effecient than the Acme, with more highs, but you can definately hear how much less "open" it sounds in the low end when you stick them side by side.

    Price-wise, I actually think they're in the same ballpark--the Aguilar certainly doesn't "cost way less", but actually a little more. List on the Ag is $1150, and I think it sells for around $800 new. The Acmes are sold "direct", and go for $695.

    Mike
     
  12. geshel

    geshel

    Oct 2, 2001
    Seattle
    You're all right, that's the generally accepted way of looking at it. I was thinking when I posted that I'd convinced myself somehow, sometime :) that that was really a myth. But, seeing how I can't justify that in anyway, nevermind. :D
     
  13. So, can I not expect to run a 4x10 with my Ampeg? Surely this isn't the case.

    I remember people on previous posts (long ago) remarking how loud this amp is. What do you think most people are using with their v4-s, and what cab do most people get who buy the new ones?

    I think there's some mis-information out there regarding this...

    comments?
     
  14. It's not misinformation, it's just advice based on people's experience with the Acme cab. Using a more efficient 4X10 will let you do small to smaller medium size gigs without FOH support IF you have a reasonable drummer and guitarist. The problem will be headroom. You won't have any.

    I hate toting my old heavy power amp so I often play these small gigs with just my studio 220 (220@4ohms,140@8ohms) and a Goliath II 8 ohm 4X10. My advice is to get a 4 ohm cab if you insist on using your head AND hope the band doesn't get too loud as the night goes by.
     
  15. Steve

    Steve

    Aug 10, 2001
    I happen to have one of those old '70's V4-B amps. I wouldn't even think about trying to gig with it using an Acme, not even at coffee house volume.

    If I were going to gig with a V4-B I'd be getting a cab based primarily on speaker efficiency. Eden, SWR, maybe a couple of JBL 15's. Something OVER 100db efficient. Those heads sound great (SVT lite)
    no quality cab is going to sound bad with it.
     
  16. Richard Lindsey

    Richard Lindsey

    Mar 25, 2000
    Metro NYC
    No, that's not what folks are trying to say. What we're saying is that you need to have a reasonably efficient cab (regardless of whether it's a 4-10, a 1-15, a 2-12, or anything else) to have a prayer of obtaining giggable volume with that head with even a modicum of headroom. An Acme is probably the *least* efficient 4-10 on the planet, so it's not a good candidate for your situation *for that reason,* not because it's a 4-10. But there other, much more efficient 4-10s (like the Eden D410XLT) that would allow you to achieve substantially more volume with that amp.
     
  17. Yep.

    :D

    According to my notes, the Acme and the Ampeg PR-410HLF share the bottom. The Eden D410XLT is at the top. Low bass extension goes hand in hand with inefficiency.
     
  18. Jerry J

    Jerry J Supporting Member

    Mar 27, 2000
    P-town, OR
    I used to use my old V4-B with an old SWR Goliath II, 4x10. It worked out ok for some small stuff. Like what has been said it really depends on the room, what kind of amps and how loud the guitarist(s) are and of course the drummer. I remember getting some pretty horrible distortion when cranking the amp and playing my old P-bass.

    BTW, just as a note since the V4-B is an all tube amp there is no benefit to having a 4 ohm cab over an 8 ohm cab.
     
  19. I hadn't realized that, another sign of being electronically challenged, I guess.:oops:

    I've been playing either all transistor or hybrid since the '70s. Before that I had a bigas* Silvertone/Fender? that I don't have a clue about (all tube? I think I remember seeing tubes). It maybe was 4X12 (3x12, 2x12?) and the amp head fit into a port at the bottom rear of the cab for transport. It was loud enough for a 15 year old, so it must have been loud as hell! :D