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amp power, EQ and strings.. achieve more lows w/o taxing amp?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by ::::BASSIST::::, May 18, 2005.


  1. ::::BASSIST::::

    ::::BASSIST:::: Progress Not Perfection.

    Sep 2, 2004
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    This may be bit of an unusual question.

    I have learned that turning up bass eq slider diminishes the volume of the amp because low eq requires more power therefore you get less volume.

    I noticed that when i turned my tone pot on my jazz to "as little highs as possible" i got more lows, but was that at the expense of taxing the amp? No power robbing eq was used therefore I assume I didnt lose volume even when adding lows, correct?

    Does using a larger gage string, say 104 E instead of 95 E, which gives more lows, have the same affect... getting more lows but not using amp power to achieve them?
     
  2. Richard Lindsey

    Richard Lindsey

    Mar 25, 2000
    Metro NYC
    Assuming you're talking about a passive J, you *didn't* get more lows. You got less treble--or, in other words, you tilted the balance between low and high in favor of low. But you did not increase your actual output of low frequencies, unless you also turned up a volume or EQ knob either on the bass or on the amp.
     
  3. popinfresh

    popinfresh

    Dec 23, 2004
    Melbourne, Aus
    I'm not sure.. But I think the above poster is indeed right..

    How about taking more highs/high mids out instead of boosting the lows?
    I've always been told 'Don't boost what you want, cut what you don't want..Less is more'.
     
  4. ::::BASSIST::::

    ::::BASSIST:::: Progress Not Perfection.

    Sep 2, 2004
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    yeah, makes sense to me. i was just thinking this may be a way to get more lows w/o sacrificing volume.
     
  5. Transverz

    Transverz believer of the Low End Theory

    May 3, 2004
    Los Angeles, CA
    I've been dealing a lot with this too. It seems as though no matter where you put in the lows, whether on the bass or on the amp, if the final result has a ton of it, then thats where a lot of the power goes. EQ is EQ no matter where in the chain you put it. As long as your amp sees a change in frequency somewhere, it'll try to reproduce it and adjust its power distribution accordingly. Now of course, the more EQ options you have external of the amp, then that leaves your amp free to do more tweaking wise, but it only has a certain amount of power to use. Especially if you have a 15 among your cab(s) but also want a lot of mids and clear highs. Those 15's take power to move. So all in all, those lows have trade offs. Unusable lows also typically needlessly rob you of power, like 30hz and below to cabs that can't produce this kind of low freqs.

    Regarding the cutting and boosting, cutting will definitely give you the flexibility to make more adjustments because you have more room to move things up or down, rather than everything up or more up. Eventually, there is no more room to go up. If you do the recommended cutting, it will of course reduce the volume and like I mentioned before, you will just have to compensate with more volume. And that's why having headroom is such a great thing. If you were maxxed out on volume already, then you would be forced to boosting the EQs for more "volume".

    *edit - so yeah, what Joshua said is what I was saying about headroom...you might want more power to give you that capability*

    Just my .02...
     
  6. IvanMike

    IvanMike Player Characters fear me... Staff Member Supporting Member

    Nov 10, 2002
    Middletown CT, USA
    yes you got less highs, so it sounded like more lows.

    different strings may give you more low end response, but you'll have to experiment. sometimes it's really more low end, soemtimes it's less mids so it sounds liek more low end. if the strings really do provide more low end just be aware that that will go towards "eating up" the headroom of your amp.

    if i recall correctly you're one of the cats who goes car-less (forgive me if i'm wrong)

    just be aware, when looking at cabinets you have two of the following three options (you can't have a cab that is all three no matter how badly you want it). `the three options are loud, small, and low (meaning low end response). As small is already a priority, you're stuck with choosing between volume and lo end response.
     
  7. Transverz

    Transverz believer of the Low End Theory

    May 3, 2004
    Los Angeles, CA
    I think he means "you CAN'T have a cab..."

    But sound advice, nonetheless :D
     
  8. IvanMike

    IvanMike Player Characters fear me... Staff Member Supporting Member

    Nov 10, 2002
    Middletown CT, USA
    ah thank you, now how do i hire you to proofread for me all the time? :smug:
     
  9. Transverz

    Transverz believer of the Low End Theory

    May 3, 2004
    Los Angeles, CA
    If you were telling me to not proofread you anymore, I wasn't trying to, its just that I read the statement numerous times looking like this --> :confused: and didn't want anyone else to be confused. I only did it because it was the most essential part of your statment and it changed the meaning completely. I didn't mean to proofread where someone didn't ask me to. Apologies :(

    But if you were lightheartedly kidding, then I am available 24/7 and at a rate of $50.00/hour. I have a doctorate in apostrophes, you know. :D

    -T
     
  10. Steve

    Steve

    Aug 10, 2001
    You have two choices
    1. You get a cabinet that has better low end response so you don't have to boost EQ and use power to get it out.

    2. You tailor the low end eq so it matches the response of the cabinet you have so you don't waste the power you do have.
    A.Most low end EQ bands shelve beyond the cabinets ability to reproduce the signal. If your cabinet is down 6db's at 50hz and the lowend of your EQ shelves at...oh, say 80hz down to 20hz like my SWR stuff. Then everything you use below 50 or so is wasted energy. If you use a high pass filter or some kind of sub filter you can take that energy that is wasted and apply it at least to something your current cabinet can produce
     
  11. IvanMike

    IvanMike Player Characters fear me... Staff Member Supporting Member

    Nov 10, 2002
    Middletown CT, USA
    oh i was lightheartedly kidding, but your fees may be a bit steep. i tell you what, i'll give you half of what paul pays me to moderate.

    (hint, you can't divide zero)
     
  12. IvanMike

    IvanMike Player Characters fear me... Staff Member Supporting Member

    Nov 10, 2002
    Middletown CT, USA
    good advice biker.............

    when i used an eden 400 head i used to boost the bass by about 3 db or so every once in a while. when i did that i would set the 1st semi parametric eq to 30 hz and cut it by the same amount that i boosted the bass shelving knob (which i think was doing the same 20 hz - 80 hz swr does). that way i didn't boost the bass frequencies my cabs were incapable of anyway.

    very good suggestion.
     
  13. ::::BASSIST::::

    ::::BASSIST:::: Progress Not Perfection.

    Sep 2, 2004
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    I totally agree you can only have 2 of these three characteristics in a cab; ligh, low, loud.

    Yes, I am car-less which is usually no problem at all, but in this particular situation it does present challenges. Current, my entire rig wieghs about 40LBs. I have it strapped onto a child's stroller and that works really well. Yes, laugh now if you must! Anyway, my experience is that it is much easier to push a load than pull. Its also way easier on the knees.

    I am considering selling the wizzy and getting a schroeder 1212.

    I know its 18lbs heavier than the wizzy, but i think it would be manageable ( but barely). I used to have an ashdown eb 180-115 and that was 48 lbs total. Regardless, i am pretty sure the schroeder 1212 would always meet my volume and tone requirements.

    If i wanted to get the full 2 ohms /300 watts out of the clarus with the schroeder 1212 would it work? Does each driver on the schroeder 1212 have its own input?

    To only get 200 watts out of the clarus with a 1000w cab seems not the way to go.

    The other option is just to get a second 112 cab. That way i could have enough volume for up to and including medium size venues, correct?
     
  14. Passinwind

    Passinwind I Know Nothing Supporting Member

    The standard Schroeder 1212 is 4 ohms, period. If you like the Clarus, consider upgrading to a Focus. That and a 1212 should get you a substantial increase in booty,and maintain the minimal footprint and weight you want. Perhaps Jorg will build you a 2 ohm 1212 if you ask nicely though. I'd still try for a lot more than 300 watts though, judging from my experience with the 1210.
     
  15. Kael

    Kael Supporting Member

    Dec 26, 2004
    Oklahoma City
    Sure you can. 0 / 8 = 0

    0 / 2 = 0

    etc. You just can't divide by zero, that would be undefined. God, I'm a math nerd....
     
  16. ::::BASSIST::::

    ::::BASSIST:::: Progress Not Perfection.

    Sep 2, 2004
    Vancouver, BC Canada
    So what your saying is I would have to use two sch 1212s to get the 300w from the clarus...

    If each driver in the schroeder is 4ohms (in a single 1212 cab) and i could plug into each driver that would work, would it not?
     
  17. Passinwind

    Passinwind I Know Nothing Supporting Member

    Yes

    If each driver in the schroeder is 4ohms (in a single 1212 cab) and i could plug into each driver that would work, would it not?

    If the drivers were each 4 ohms in parallel, the cab would already be a 2 ohm cab, and you wouldn't need two inputs to get where you want to be. Having two separate inputs would likely complicate the crossover scheme in the cab, don't think that you'd want to go there. Just email Jorg and ask him about building a 2 ohm cab, he's a great guy about working with people to give 'em what they want. On that note, have you talked to John at Euphonic for his ideas on your best solution?
     
  18. seanm

    seanm I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize! Supporting Member

    Feb 19, 2004
    Ottawa, Canada
    You would not even notice the difference between 200W and 300W. You need double the power to get a noticable (3db) difference.

    I tried out a guitarists clarus. Great amp, great sound, great features, but underpowered for electric bass IMHO.
     
  19. ::::BASSIST::::

    ::::BASSIST:::: Progress Not Perfection.

    Sep 2, 2004
    Vancouver, BC Canada

    Yes, I email John at EA. He said it may be a bad driver in the wizzy and to try a different cab with my amp to see if the results are vastly superior. I havent had an opportunity to try this yet.

    In the end though, I think the wizzy driver is operating properly. It could be that I am wanting more bass than it can deliver (ie its overrated) or i need a more powerful amp.

    However, I am putting 200watts into the wizzy so i dont see how thats not enough power from the amp.
     
  20. Richard Lindsey

    Richard Lindsey

    Mar 25, 2000
    Metro NYC
    Look, don't get hung up on the idea that you *have* to get your full 300 watts (though of course that's always nice). In the first place, the difference between 200 and 300 watts, in terms of effective volume, is not that much anyway. In the second place, you could get that much of a volume boost by just getting a more efficient cab, For example, if a SChroeder is 3 dB more sensitive than the Wizzy (I'm not saying it is, this is just a f'rinstance), then you would actually be gaining *more* in loudness by putting your 200 W into the Schroeder instead of the Wizzy than by going from 200 to 300 W in the Wizzy.

    Of course, more power *and* a more efficient cab is ideal. You may find that the Clarus just isn't enough power no matter what you do. There's always the Focus!