1. Please take 30 seconds to register your free account to remove most ads, post topics, make friends, earn reward points at our store, and more!  
    TalkBass.com has been uniting the low end since 1998.  Join us! :)

An LGBT question

Discussion in 'Off Topic [BG]' started by burk48237, Dec 31, 2013.

  1. burk48237

    burk48237 Supporting Member

    Nov 22, 2004
    Oak Park, MI
    I was hearing about this recent court ruling in AU this week and would love to hear a few different takes on it. Now first, because the ruling was a juvenile the public records are spotty.

    But from what I can tell the Courts in AU have forced the parents of a ten year old to begin medical treatments to suspend puberty in 10 year old boy who self identifies as a girl.

    First, I have no problem with adults getting a sex change operation. It's basically their own and no one else's business. And obviously there are rare cases that happen when the physical sex of a child is not clear at birth due to some abnormality.

    But when I hear of eight year olds insisting that they are sexually mis-identified I wonder what their qualifications are (or any one around them for that matter) to make that permanent determination? I mean I wanted to be a policeman when I was ten and could sit still long enough to think about it.

    And doesn't this fly in the face of the LGBT argument that people with sexual gender preferences are born that way and it is irrevocable? I agree for the record that there are no doubt genetic tendencies to sexual orientation. Here we have people who clearly aren't "born that way" seeking to reverse engineer biology. The reality Jamie was apparently "born" as a boy.

    I could understand this with an older child. But to me this strikes me as a form of Eugenics to give the state power to order sex-change proceeders on a 10 year old. When you think about it, what is the difference philosophically between this and some religions forced clitirectomy? Many of those young girls "consent" too?

    And while many talk about the psychological difficulties of gender mis=identification, what about the difficulties of a boy whose puberty was suspended and then realized later it was just a phase? We're talking about permanent damage to this boys development.

    While I have no problems with adults seeking their own identity or changing it. Should we allow children unlimited rights to do so?

  2. I feel no decisions of that magnitude should be made by someone too young to legally have a drink or vote or hold a drivers license. There was a time when in order to go through any reassignment surgeries, one had to go through X amount of counseling first.
  3. There are various prescription (and non-prescription) drugs and environmental things that tend to be bad, or at least not good for the pre-pubescent brain. I would look at ages 16-23 as the gray area, so to speak. Anything before that seems extreme. Psychiatric and psychological problems develop in that window. Why not let a human grow up enough to truly decide to mess with their brains/bodies/life?

    I don't have kids, but if I did...
  4. burk48237

    burk48237 Supporting Member

    Nov 22, 2004
    Oak Park, MI
    To me this sounds like a form of state child abuse. And if the parents made the decision it would be just plain child abuse.
  5. two fingers

    two fingers Opinionated blowhard. But not mad about it. Gold Supporting Member

    Feb 7, 2005
    Eastern NC USA
    Yeah do whatever makes you happy when you grow up. But a kid just need to be a kid. Let 'em go outside and play and worry about sex/gender later. If the boy wants to play with dolls and dress up, that's up to him. But medical procedures (when there is nothing physically wrong with him at this point) on someone that young is abuse.

    When I was 10 I wanted to be Batman. But my parents (nor the government) would supply me with a cape, a 30 ft long black car, or a sidekick. I guess I got robbed by the system.

    More government thinking it knows better how to care for us than we do. It never works out. Ever.
  6. ErebusBass


    Feb 20, 2008
    Madison, WI
    OP seems to have a lot of misconceptions about transgendered people, and I don't see this one ending well.
  7. Marial

    Marial weapons-grade plum

    Apr 8, 2011
  8. burk48237

    burk48237 Supporting Member

    Nov 22, 2004
    Oak Park, MI
    Do you have a point?:rollno:

    I mean I'm more than willing to learn from someone with some real experience in this area. And I'm more than willing to admit that growing up in the 70's while I knew several gays, and a few Bis, true transgennders were a oddity to say the least. But to just take shots at a "lot of misconceptions" isn't an argument.

    Biological identity is something we can clearly see, parts is parts. Bur psychological identity is relatively new even in the world of science, much less human identity. I'll stand by my perceptions and my general libertarian views that adults, are free to pretty much do anything that doesn't cause physical harm to other adults. But kids are the subjects of their parents.

    The reality is pedophile is a sexual preference too, but most decent people in the West don't accept it like hetero/homo sexuality. I think the same should apply to designating our own projections to a child's sexuality. And I have to wonder how many of these trans-gendered kids aren't acting out to please some adult in their lives? Again we're not talking about teen-agers coming into their sexuality here. We're talking about pre-pubescent children.

    When I was eight I had a girl friend one day, the next day girls had coodies. I've never met an 8 year old who was qualified to decide on their dietary or fashion choices for a day, much less their gender identity or sexual preference for a lifetime.
  9. Marlat


    Sep 17, 2002
    London UK
    You're misread the article, the parents are not being forced by the court, they made the application on the child's behalf: the law in Australia requires the court's consent before gender therapy drugs can be used in a minor even if the parents support it. No one is forcing the parents to do anything other than go back to court for further consent before oestrogen treatment can commence. This is not about the state forcing parents to use transgender drugs on their children (as no doubt conservative blogs would spin it) but rather the state putting a legal impediment in the way of parents allowing gender therapy drugs to be used on minors.
  10. Swift713


    Dec 4, 2006
    Florence, Ma
    I've heard a number of transgender people say that they knew who they were by around the first grade when most people start to learn that boys and girls are different. Seems like a tough call. It makes sense to avoid the irreversible effects of puberty if they're headed in the wrong direction but to facilitate such a permanent decision before the age of consent? I'm glad it's not up to me.
  11. BawanaRik


    Mar 6, 2012
    New Jersey
    There is a certain irony. An individual can't order a drink but they can make a permanent irreversible change to their body.

    And it's not just a tattoo.
  12. mellowinman

    mellowinman Free Man

    Oct 19, 2011
    1. I don't think children under 18 should dabble in such things as deciding their gender
    2. I agree that this most likely will not end well
  13. 96tbird

    96tbird PLEASE STAND BY Supporting Member

    Curtailing puberty with drugs. That's gotta be good for a human body. Riiiight.

    Doesn't this fly in the face if the Hippocratic oath and or general medical ethic?
  14. burk48237

    burk48237 Supporting Member

    Nov 22, 2004
    Oak Park, MI
    That just changes the question. Should parents be allowed to make this decision? If so, based on what?

    Is the science in this area decided? Do we have clear markers that allow us to look at the life of an 8 year old to decide that despite the biology, nature got it wrong, and we should change it perhaps irrevocably?

    If you believe that it is strictly the parents decision and not possibly a form of child abuse, then should religious parents have the same authority for religious reasons? The science is undecided, and all cultures are apparently equal?
  15. yodedude2

    yodedude2 Supporting Member

    just dropping by to add that there is no magical number (i.e. 18 years) that can apply to everyone's level of maturity. i sure don't know how else to deal with the issue myself. just noting that i've seen mature 14 year olds that were basically the same wise and mature person at 22, and i've seen some 22 year olds that were still too immature to drive, drink, enlist, etc.
  16. Ziltoid

    Ziltoid I don't play bass SUSPENDED

    Apr 10, 2009
    I like cheese.
  17. Marlat


    Sep 17, 2002
    London UK
    Well, clearly the answer in Australia is "no" since the parent shave to petition the court and have it approved by a medical tribunal in order to get approval. I guess that answers your second question too (all this is set out in the article you linked to).

    I don't know what the science on this is, but given that the Australian Government has seen fit to require court approval on the basis of the assessment of an independent medical panel, that seems like a reasonable degree of protection. Is it enough? I don't know - what more would be reasonable?

    I don't believe it's strictly the parents decision and I don't believe all cultures and beliefs are apparently equal. Some are ridiculous. So I guess your question above is moot since it makes assumptions that don't hold up.
  18. Swift713


    Dec 4, 2006
    Florence, Ma
    Seems like a good idea to have a medical tribunal asses the child and weigh in. There's no perfect system for decision making. If you're born you're gonna get hurt.
  19. experimental bassist

    experimental bassist

    Mar 15, 2009
    Suicide in transgender children is often the more serious issue, and in many (most?) cases needs to take precedence.

    Some transgender children know at a very early age their gender (which is as much a neurological construct as a genital construct, thank you very much). However, some folks do not realize until much later in life.

    Puberty blockers merely delay biological changes in puberty, and are completely reversible. Most likely this is the medical procedure in question, and IMO should absolutely be available for children who need it.

    And a side note, questions and topics about transgender issues are a great way to learn about a topic that has historically been misunderstood.

    It is also good to understand the LGBT community is NOT a monolithic block, doesn't always speak to the needs or best interests of any one group in particular, and specifically concerning transgender issues is as behind the times as anyone else.

    Final word: Want to understand transgender issues? Listen to the transgender community, I have found they are some of the most self-assured, courageous, and introspective people I have ever have the privilege to get to know.

    Hope this is helpful - written as an ally and parent of transgender youth.
  20. TBird1958

    TBird1958 As a matter of fact....I am your Queen! Staff Member

    Mar 13, 2008
    Seattle Washington
    Endorsing Artist Mike Lull T Bass pickups
    Thank you.
    Whenever this subject comes up here, you always have an insightful post.

    Again, thanks.