Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by Esther97, Nov 30, 2002.

  1. Esther97


    Sep 23, 2002
    hey Ya'll. So Arpeggios are the notes of a chord played one after the other. Say your in the Key of C maj, and the chord is Diminished (R, b3, b5). There are no flats/Sharps in this scale, so is this when Modes come into play? (If so would the key correspond to which Scale/Mode that fit?) Also I understand that Modes are basically Scales themselves, so do i view them seperately or in relation to their parent scale?
    ex. D dorian d-e-f-g-a-b-c-d

    Like if a song/jam is in C maj, can i occasionally throw in D/ E (phrygian) etc. as a Root, or does the key need to be in D dorian/E Phrygian etc.?

    Thanx for any help -Esther
  2. Gard

    Gard Commercial User

    Mar 31, 2000
    Greensboro, NC, USA
    General Manager, Roscoe Guitars

    ....I'll try to help out here, but I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to ask for some of this - for example:

    "Say your in the Key of C maj, and the chord is Diminished (R, b3, b5). There are no Flats/Sharps in this scale, so is this when Modes come into play?"

    Which chord is diminished????? C??? B????? You have to be more specific to get a complete answer here.

    As for Modes/Scales, you can (and, in my opinion should) be comfortable with them either way - as individual scales (i.e. D Dorian = C Ionian = G Mixolydian); and as scales in their own right (i.e. the "scale" for G7 is G Mixolydian [yes, I know there are some other choices, but this is the simplest one!]).

    Here's my way of using Modes: I am aware that there are 7 patterns within a given key signature, and that any one of them can be the "root" pattern. However, you can use any of the patterns, anywhere you happen to be on the fingerboard, as long as they correspond to the correct key. Of course, this means that you need to understand that the key signature for G Mixolydian is identical to that for C Major/Ionian and A Minor/Aeolian and D Dorian and...and then you need to be able to resolve lines to the proper root, depending on which Mode you're playing in. So, you can use the pattern of G Mixolydian when playing in A Minor, but you must resolve lines to the note A, NOT G - if that makes sense.

    Corresponding arpeggios to modes is a whole 'nother topic, which I could go on and on about, but I can't right now, gotta gig to get ready for!
  3. Esther97


    Sep 23, 2002
    hmm, thanx for the input. That cleared alittle somethin up, but i'm still kind of confused. Can you explain what you mean by patterns?

    This is probably wrong, but your saying (With G Mixolydian/A Minor)..I can start my phrase/line with G but have to end (resolve) on A??

    What i meant was, to practice the C Diminished Arpeggio must i look to modes for the correct notes? (C Locrain??)

    Thank you again for the help, sorry if i'm too confusing -Esther
  4. Phil Smith

    Phil Smith Mr Sumisu 2 U

    May 30, 2000
    Peoples Republic of Brooklyn
    Creator of: iGigBook for Android/iOS
    To practice a C diminished arpeggio or any diminished arpeggio, you have to know how it's built i.e. two minor third intervals. C dminished would be C, Eb, Gb.
  5. Esther97


    Sep 23, 2002
    Does anyone else have some more input??
  6. jazzbo


    Aug 25, 2000
    San Francisco, CA
    <a href=""><img src="" width="175" height="150" border="0" alt="Learn THEORY and get some CANDY by clicking on BABYFROG!"></a>
  7. Esther97


    Sep 23, 2002
    thank you jazzbo, that lesson has helped me immensely for a while now. My question on Arpeggios/Scales was stupid to begin with, but I'm still confused on how to utilize Modes?
  8. jazzbo


    Aug 25, 2000
    San Francisco, CA
    Try these on for size:

    Let me know if these make any sense, and maybe we can go from there.
  9. dirk


    Apr 6, 2000
    Memphis, TN
    If your playing a song that's utilizing diatonic harmony, the only diminished chord would be B. The triad or arpeggio would be B D F.

    If you played the Cdim arpeggio C Eb Gb, you'd be in the key of Db Major or Bb Minor.
  10. Chris Tarry

    Chris Tarry

    Mar 20, 2000
    New York
    Endorsing Artist: Moollon Basses, D'Addario, Markbass, GruvGear
    Hi There,

    We know that a triad is made up of a root note, some type of third (major or minor) and some type of fifth (perfect, augmented, or diminished). These notes are called chord tones because they are the notes from the scale that go into making up the chord. The 2, 4, 6, are called scale tones because they, along with the chord tones, help make up the specific scale or mode that go with the chord. (We will talk about the 7th note in a minute)

    Let’s take a look at the mode C ionian. Take the root C, count up to the third note of the scale and find out what kind of third it is. It’s a major 3rd. Then up to the fifth, and we find a perfect fifth. So, the chord that corresponds with the first mode of any major key will always be a major chord.

    If we stack another third on top of the fifth, we get the seventh note of the scale. Count up seven notes of the mode. What kind of 7th do we have? It’s a major 7th.

    So now we can see that the first mode (ionian) of any major key is always going to be a major 7th chord.

    Take each mode and apply this formula.
    1. some kind of root
    2. some kind of 3rd
    3. some kind of 5th
    4. some kind of 7th

    The second mode in C would be D dorian. It has a D for the root, an F for the third (minor 3rd), a B for the fifth (perfect 5th), and a C for the 7th (minor 7th). Put it all together (turn yourself around) and we get a D-7 (D minor seven)

    1. Memorize the order in which all these chords occur.
    2. Memorize chord quality that goes with each mode.
    3. Get an out-of-work guitar player friend to record one chord vamps into a tape ma-chine then play over each diatonic chord and listen to the sound of the mode against the chord.

    This way, when you’re out on a gig, the piano player can say to you. “This tune is in the key of C. It just goes III, VI, II, V, I over and over...” You can now drop that statement into your now finely tuned secret piano player de-coder ring, and it will translate: In the key of C, this tune goes E-7, A-7, D-7, G7, CMaj 7

    Here are the order of chord qualities in all major keys. Remember these are the same in every key.

    1. Ionian - Maj7
    2. Dorian - min7
    3. Phrygian - min7
    4. Lydian - Maj7
    5. Mixolydian - Dom7 (1, maj3, 5, b7)
    6. Aeolian - min7 (or the natural minor scale)
    7. Locrion - min7 (b5)

    How to relate it back to the chord?

    If you see a Cmaj7 chord you can think C Ionian, D Dorion, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian...ect.. They all work. If you see B-7 (b5) (otherwise known as B half diminished) you can also play all these scales from the key of C because B-7 (b5) is built from the Locrian scale, the 7th degree of Cmajor... They all work.

    To take it into another key... If you see E7 (the classic jam chord of an E dominant seven) let's work it out. A Dominant seven chord comes from where...? I'll wait...hmmm...let me get a coffee. Oh, your still here...Your right, the 5th degree of any major key. What scale does it this coffee is good.... What?... Right, it takes a Mixolydian scale. In this case E Mixolydian. We also know it's the 5th degree of what key center....needs sugar..... Correct E is the 5th of degree of A Major. So over E7, the most common chord in music, we can play A Ionian, B Dorion, C# Phrygian, D Lydian, E Mixolydian, F# Dorian (Hey it's also the minor scale) and G# Locrion.

    This is how you relate diatonic chords with their relative diatonic modes.

    Hope this helps.

    All the best,
    Chris Tarry
  11. Pacman

    Pacman Layin' Down Time Staff Member Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 1, 2000
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Endorsing Artist: Roscoe Guitars, DR Strings, Aguilar Amplification
    Chris, it's great to see you around here. I'm going to be checking out your band at IAJE - can't wait to see you play.
  12. Chris Tarry

    Chris Tarry

    Mar 20, 2000
    New York
    Endorsing Artist: Moollon Basses, D'Addario, Markbass, GruvGear
    Thanks, good to be here. Touring schedule keeps me away most of the time but I have a few weeks off at the moment so it's nice to check out what's happeing out in cyber space.

    Please come up and say hi at the IAJE gig! I know it's a late one. I beleive it starts around 12:30 pm.

    Hope to see ya there.

    All the best,
    Chris Tarry