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avatar dissapointment

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by thumbtrap, Jul 17, 2003.

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  1. Jul 17, 2003 #1
    thumbtrap

    thumbtrap

    Jun 26, 2003
    First of all - I'd like to say, Dave is a heck of a nice guy. Business like, and the cabinet appears well made. I have no gripes with Dave. All my gripes are subjective.

    I got the B115H, and first of all - it struck me as not really being any louder than my homebuilt compact 15. (Really compact. Some MCM driver I forget and they probably don't sell any longer - rolls off at 66Hz in a 1.7ft sealed cabinet, no clue about xmax and probably no more than 75-100w power.) My head is not the most powerful in the world - Carvin PB200H (160w into 8ohms), but maxed out - the Avatar and Carvin would keep up with a cranked Champ, tops. I know this cabinet can handle quite a bit more amp than I have - perhaps it could be loud enough with a decent head. I have a Carver PM1.5 on the way. (I hope. I got a bad feeling I'll be talking to the Postal Inspector about this guy.)

    It's also huge. Thank you guys for talking me out of that 9ft box. Thank you. (Did I mention thank you?) I wish I'd gotten the CB. I'm still wondering if it's worth shipping back. $42 shipping out, $42 shipping back, and I could have an empty CB115H box sent out for $138.

    It's also rather scooped in the upper mids - I know that range can be a real ugly sound if not handled right, but this isn't the way to do it either. The tweeter is all highs, the 15 all lows, and it sounds as if they didn't QUIIITE meet up in the middle. I have to keep the tweeter rolled way way back, but it's kinda muddy if I roll it off alltogether. It handles the mudddy/floppy B on my Yamaha BB5 ok as far as I've managed to push it.

    Will this thing come alive with a 210 and a bigger amp? I got the bigger cab thinking about doing just that. Should I sell it local, send it back, or stick it out and make do - maybe make it my leave on location cab? I dunno what to do. I'm dissapointed, but this thing does work for a lot of you guys.
     
  2. Jul 17, 2003 #2
    Piezoman

    Piezoman

    Nov 29, 2002
    Bronx, New York
    HOw does the avvie sound. I am interested in a cab from them. It sounds good.?
     
  3. Jul 17, 2003 #3
    BIg O

    BIg O

    Apr 3, 2002
    Kitchener, ON, Canada
    You have a grossly underpowered setup there, so you are not getting anywhere near the punch you would get with a more powerful amp. Most guys on this site promote using an amp that is higher powered (or at least power-matched) to the cab. You are getting very little out of it if you are pushing it with only 160 watts flat out. The frequency response of any setup is non-linear across the power spectrum to a certain degree. So is the frequency sensitivity of your ears. You will always get optimal performance when the cab and amp power ratings are matched.

    Also, the B115H really works best as a supplement to a 2x10 or 4x10.

    I would suggest one of the following:

    Your old setup seemed ideal. If you wanted more volume, you should look at more power PLUS more speaker area.

    If I was to have a single cab only, my choice would be a 2x10. Most 2x10 systems have a very similar frequency response to 1x15's and have the capability (with good cab design) to deliver max punch without losing any of the audible bottom end. But remember, to get the most performance out of the cabinet, as a minimum have it power-matched with the amplifier.

    Until you decide to upgrade your amp, I would sell the 1x15, and chalk it up to experience. Or keep it for future use with a moree powerful head.
     
  4. Jul 17, 2003 #4
    thumbtrap

    thumbtrap

    Jun 26, 2003
    The tonal descriptions were of the Avatar, not the homebuilt cabinet. The homebuilt is a little punchier, more natural upper mids, no tweeter, and none needed.

    I can see the tweeter on the 10" cabinets if you're into that stuff. I don't think the tweeter is a good match for this 15". Perhaps I should try bypassing the crossover first, but I would not consider the B115H as a standalone full range cabinet. It's muddy with the tweeter off, but if you roll it up to about 3 or so, all I get is finger and fret noise. It's almost ok on my fretless. But on my fretted bass (which runs too bright for my tastes anyway) it's simply too much.

    Like I said - the Carver should be on the way shortly. I'd hoped for a tad more EFFICIENCY, though since my old cab was a hifi driver in a sealed cab.
     
  5. Jul 17, 2003 #5
    bgavin

    bgavin

    May 3, 2001
    Orangevale, CA 95662
    This cab appears to be about 4.44 cubic feet net internal volume. The Kappa 15LF is Optimum Flat in 4.6 cubic feet, tuned at 41 Hz. It seems the advertised tuning of 50 Hz is a bit high.

    This driver is a realistic 95 SPL sensitivity, and according to the Eminence charts, begins to roll off above 1,200 Hz. There is no midrange here.. which is why it sounds scooped. I'm sure the tweeter cuts in much higher than 1,200 Hz, or it would be splattered all over the grille.

    In 4.44 cubic feet tuned at 50 Hz, this driver will take the full 400 watts almost entirely across the spectrum. The low point is 359 watts at 65 Hz or it exceeds Xmax of 0.2165". The other low point is 43 Hz, at 379 watts. The Xmech is 0.8201" for this driver, so you won't overdrive it at 400 watts, from 43 Hz and higher. In this alignment, power handling falls away very rapidly below 43 Hz.
     
  6. Jul 17, 2003 #6
    Gabu

    Gabu

    Jan 2, 2001
    Lake Elsinore, CA
    Let us know when you get that Carver. It will be interesting to see how much difference it makes in the tone you are getting with throwing just more power into it.
     
  7. Jul 17, 2003 #7
    thumbtrap

    thumbtrap

    Jun 26, 2003
    I had considered running a CB115H and a pair of Dayton 295-120's like we were talking about in the other thread (or a single one if biamping and I don't need the volume) - but at the last minute I waffled and got the big cabinet, thinking about the 210 and mostly playing the 4 string.

    (As handy as the low D is at church - I like the sound of my fretless much much much better. The BB5 sounds like they were attempting to get the "piano string" bass sound and dint quite make it capn. I want to try some flatwounds on the 5 if I can find them - I almost hate to swap pickups on the thing - because I don't want to sink the cash into EMG's if this bass won't reward the investment.)

    Dave said 4.1 ft on the phone. I almost wonder about slapping it and a midrange (no tweeter - I'm all done by 5k anyways)in a sealed box. B2 shows 1.8ft in your spreadsheet - coupled with a good midrange it'd make nice 4 string cab in a small package.
     
  8. Jul 17, 2003 #8
    Schwinn

    Schwinn

    Dec 4, 2002
    Sarasota, FL
    You need more juice. That cab is craving more power than you can give it. Can you try it with a more powerful head right away? After that, return it if you don't like it.

    And I agree with everything Big O said...and bgavin, it's so cool to have people with technical know-how on this board - that's why I come here so much. One day I hope I can understand what you just said :D
     
  9. Jul 17, 2003 #9
    Gabu

    Gabu

    Jan 2, 2001
    Lake Elsinore, CA
    What is your objective in rank of importance between Tone, Volume, and Portability?
     
  10. Jul 17, 2003 #10
    thumbtrap

    thumbtrap

    Jun 26, 2003
    I need balanced tone from D on up to "vintage articulate but not the modern slapping with tweeters". I need volume enough to be heard in a 700 seat auditorium that's about half full, but they aint dancing, the drinks are served in little tiny thimble sized cups, and I mustn't blast the hats off the little old ladies who all sit in the very front. In smaller venues I need enough volume to keep up with an 18 - 60w guitar combo.

    Given that - I'll take as small as practical, however... given an Eminence Kappa Pro 15LF not being put to good use - I don't see any reason to put it in a larger box than need be.
     
  11. Jul 17, 2003 #11
    DeepDeath

    DeepDeath

    Jul 17, 2001
    Alhambra, Southern California
    i run my b410 with 700watts minimum all the time at 4ohms i even use to run it with 120 guitar head(Peavey 5150) which i got plenty good tones from. but the bass amp i have now sound really good, try with that powerful carver head and lets see an update.
     
  12. Jul 17, 2003 #12
    Gabu

    Gabu

    Jan 2, 2001
    Lake Elsinore, CA
    After reading all this I was wondering if you would be happier with Avatar's 212.
     
  13. Jul 17, 2003 #13
    blipndub

    blipndub

    Apr 27, 2000
    Olympia, Washington
    I have the Avatar 212 and am gigging this weekend with a brand new Avatar 210 on top, will report how that goes...

    The 212's will probably still be underpowered as they are rated at 1000 W, but it would still provide more of the middle range of tones between the tweeter (which i agree sounds horrid) and the 15.

    I've been happy using the 212 exclusively but wanted to power up my amp by lowering ohms and have added a second cab.
     
  14. Jul 17, 2003 #14
    boku

    boku

    Jul 10, 2003
    Brunswick, Ohio
    I found the Avatar 115 to be quite inefficient and close to useless all by itself. Problem is, it is so inefficient, you can't just parallel it with another cab because it will just hide out in the background.

    Just my $.02 observation.

    I will never get another 15" cab again.

    I like the 2x12 concept. A 2x12 and a 2x10 would be sweet.
     
  15. Jul 17, 2003 #15
    bentem

    bentem

    Oct 18, 2002
    Rockville, MD
    I have only the 210, and putting 600 watts into it, it completley craps out at high volumes, or if i even turn the master volume past 11 or 12 o'clock.
     
  16. Jul 17, 2003 #16
    jobu3

    jobu3 ¿Huevos?!

    Feb 17, 2002
    Mountain Top, PA
    i'll second it that you are grossly underpowering it... i hit mine with the full bridged 1800+ at about 60% volume of my rmx 1850 hd and it ate it all up... when i hit it with only one side (625 at 4 ohms) it begged for more in a high volume setting... when coupled with my av. 410 (also 4 ohms) i cranked the 15 and gave the 410 just enough to even it out... it sounded expensive. for really loud gigs i cranked up the two cabs and the 10's took care of everything in front and the 15 filled up the rest of the room with out a problem every time... i don't know if adding cabs is the way to go unless you have stereo capabilities with dual volume controls (or biamp capabilities i.e. hartke 7000) maybe twelves are the way to go? :confused:
     
  17. Jul 17, 2003 #17
    cjgallen

    cjgallen

    Oct 19, 2001
    I thought my avatars were great when I first got them, but let me just throw some numbers at you.

    Aguilar GS112
    40Hz is at -2dB

    Avatar B210
    40Hz is at around -18dB (just plug the drivers into WinISD if you don't believe me)

    A 16dB difference. That means you have to put FORTY times more watts into the Avatar to get your E string fundamental at the same level with the Aguilar. 10*Log(40/1)=16dB

    It's no wonder I can't cut through two guitarists with 1500 watts :rolleyes:

    The B115 is a little better. 40Hz is around -9dB (needs 8x more power to compare to the GS112). BUT it's friggin huge, and I hate lugging mine around.

    So here's the options:
    More power (a hellava lot more)
    Different Cabs

    <---soon to join the GS112 club
     
  18. Jul 17, 2003 #18
    thumbtrap

    thumbtrap

    Jun 26, 2003
    OK, Back at home, and after more playing around with it - In all fairness.... I can get used to this. On further comparison - my little baby sealed fifteen sounds louder mostly because of low & upper mid response.

    After enough curiousity, I opened up the darn thing and discovered the mystery speaker is an Eminence with the MCM part number of 55-765 / 15869 could be the Eminence part . It's not in Bruce's spreadsheet, and it doesn't appear to be available, but I recall I splurged and spent $77 or so and it had a large enough magnet that the washers for the jack stood up on edge when assembling the cabinet - which is kinda freaky at 2am when you're already worried about brain cells dying from exposure to contact cement. No clue what xmax is - I didn't pay attention to that back then.

    I think the Carvin might also be a tad gain limited too - so I am probably not even pushing full power. (I have destroyed a couple of the little 6.5" 50w 8ohm woofers in my micro B box, and the amp will put out like 50wrms into an 8 ohm load per channel.)

    At any rate - the Avatar is by no means done when the Carvin runs outta gas, and little 1.7 footer IS. With a little bit of EQ at 250 and 500hz, they are much closer. It's still a honkin large box though :eek: Since i already have plans for the amp upgrade. I am just gonna live with it, and maybe add a 210.
     
  19. Jul 17, 2003 #19
    bgavin

    bgavin

    May 3, 2001
    Orangevale, CA 95662
    The Kappa 15LF isn't an awful driver by a long shot. It has a narrow delta of only 3.3 dB between 43 and 89 Hz. No big drop off until it gets below low E. SPL-wise, it is within 3dB of the big noise makers, i.e. 120.5 dB maximum at 400 watts.

    You need to have 400 clean watts to drive this thing, if you want to hear it. To run the drop D tuning, I'd tune this driver as an SBB4 type, right spot on at 39 Hz, which is about D# tuning.

    Bass harmonics go to about 8,000 Hz maximum, so you will need something to fill in between 1200 and 8000 Hz without scooping out the mids.
     
  20. Jul 17, 2003 #20
    thumbtrap

    thumbtrap

    Jun 26, 2003
    I thought it was a slip of the finger, but the numbers check out for the Kappa 15LF. The driver in the B115 is purported to be a Kappa PRO 15LF, which trades a few Hz on the bottom and some power for a few on top, a smaller box and a couple dB efficiency.
     
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