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Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Nick man, Jun 11, 2004.
How efficient are Avatar cabs?
Specifically the 2-12.
It uses 2x Eminence Delta 12 LF speakers. They have an efficiency rating of 94dB for one speaker. Add 3dB for the second speaker and that equates to a sensitivity rating of 97dB for that cab.
I've had my Avatar B212 for 6 months now and it has handled everything I've thrown at it. Great cab.
I looked up those specs but Im curious how the cab affects the overall efficiency. Does it even affect it?
Since they dont post specs on their website I was hoping someone with some other cabs to test side by side with the Avatar could tell me how they compared.
Thanks for checking out the thread.
The cabinet volume and porting will affect the frequency response of the system (mainly in the low frequencies), but it won't have a significant impact on the overall efficiency. Efficiency is usually measured at 1KHz, and cabinet tuning has little, if any, effect that high.
This applies to basic vented cabinets; when you get into transmission lines and horns, it's a different story.
My Avatar 2x12 is moderately efficient. It's quite a bit louder than my Acme Low B-2, most likely due to the added 4dB of sensitivity. It's still not a very loud cab though... I've thrown 700 watts at it without being able to get it to compete with a heavy handed drummer. The Acme and Avatar combined with 600 watts each can, but only barely.
Ok, thanks for the info.
So then at about 97db @1w 1m that puts it behind the Eden 210XST which claims 103 db @1w 1m by quite a bit,
I have two Eden 210XST cabs but I need volume more than tone right now. The Avatar doesnt look like the way to go.
Anyone agree disagree?
I wouldn't say agree or disagree...My drummer has a Beringer 18 inch sub and a Nady 900 watt power amp. I know bargain stuff but seems to be pretty loud. I have a 212 and a 410 Avatar...powered by QSC RMX 2450 at 2400 watt @4 ohms bridged...just seems to be pretty freakin loud to me and keeps up and passes everyone else in the room. The guitar player has a Peavy Badit 112 and a 412 Beringer, (yes, bargain again), but he felt he needed to get a the QSC RMX 850 to bring himself back up to speed. My lord when we play out I think we'll have more than enough volume, eh?
How many watts if your amp?
I've got some Eden gear and I bought it at a time where volume was all that mattered. It delivered. If it were me, I would have gone for the XLT series rather than the XST. I think Eden only bothered with the XST's because some people made a bit of noise about low B's having a 31Hz fundamental. From what I've read on TB the XST's therefore sound "nicer" in the low end but are more likely to get burried in the mix that the "punchier" XLT's.
In the meantine, try some different EQ settings. Try adding some 250Hz -500Hz, maybe even a bit of 1K. It won't sound as smooth on it's own, but it will cut through better live.
I run it basically flat with some boost around those frequencies when Im not cutting but since I play in LOUD rock bands most the time I just need more speaker surface area. Im trying to decide if the slightly greater surface area of 4-12s will give me a noticeable advantage over 4-10s.
After posting this thread though I think Im going to go with two used Ampeg 4-10 cabs.
The amp is a QSC USA 900.
I believe that makes it about 450 watts per side at 4 ohms per side.
Lets do the math:-
1. 900w into a 2xAmpeg 4x10's (sensitivity of one cab is 98dB I believe, therefore sensitivity = 101dB for 2 of them).
Formula for max SPL is = Sensitivity + 10 * Log(Watts)
So 101 + (10*2.954) = 130.54dB
2. Your current setup, 900w into 2x Eden 210XST's (sensitivity of one cab is 103dB I believe, therefore sensitivity = 107dB for 2 of them).
107 + (10*2.954) = 136.54 dB.
Now that's at 1K which probably exagerates the volume difference at typical gig bass guitar frequencies. However, I personally think you're going in the wrong direction by going for cabe that are less efficient than what you've got now. I'd be looking at 8x10's, but with effiencies in the ballpark of the Eden's.
Oh at at +135dB, you'd better look into some decent musicians ear plugs.
I use a QSC USA 900 and an Avatar b212 4 ohm cab and it's quite capable of high volume on its own. I would gig with it by itself if I didn't also have an Avatar B115 8ohm cab. Man I just love speakers.
But we're also talking about double the speaker surface area and additional effects from coupling with the 8-10 versus 4-10 setup right?
I don't know...my full set up (avatar b212 and b115 powered with a QSC plx 2402) has brought me complaints from neighbors twice when I rehearsed with my band. Specifically, they complained that the bass was way too loud and they could hear it inside their homes. So that's about as loud as I ever need to be.
To put it in perspective, is a 2x10 louder than a 1x10? You'd think so. But I built a 2x10 sub for my home Hi-Fi. It goes low and the speakers are therefore inefficient (91dB combined). If I use my single 10" PA speaker on top of it, even though it has half the speaker cone area, the PA speaker is so much louder it literally burries the sub to a point where you can't even hear it. Why? Because it has a higher sensitivity rating (96dB). That 5dB difference is enormous, so much so that the combination of speakers mantioned was unusable.
To a certain extent, that's been factored into the formula by increasing the sensitivities by 3dB each time. However, the formula doesn't take into account natural speaker coupling in the lower frequencies. So doubling the speakers will feel louder because of the increase in bottom end. What tends to happen then is that most people EQ out the extra low end to get back to the sound they're used to. That's a good thing, it stops the difficult to handle low frequencies from reaching the speaker creating an improved performance in the speakers excursion, so the whole rig can now be pushed a bit harder.
Nick at the end of the day, you'll learn more in a 10 second equipment audition then you'll ever get from pages and pages of specs and theory. Always try it out before you buy it.
Ive had neighbors say that when I was practicing with bands inside my house back when I was using a 100 watt solid state 1-15 combo and my guitarist was using a 35 watt solid state 1-12 combo and a typical drummer.
It was aparently bad enough in their opinion to call the cops.
That's because low frequencies travel very differently to high and mid frequencies - but that's a different thread.
I plan on it. Ive actually played through both the Ampeg cabs in question. They are a SVT410HE and SVT410HLF and they sounded louder. Probably partly because I had speakers at ear level, but a big part of it was the added speakers I think.
The problem is the Avatar speakers cant just be tried out in a store. Even if I didn get to side by side them its rare that you can really crank it without being told to leave.
I compared one of my B212s to my Hartke 4.5XL tonight. The test amp was an old AMP SL-1 preamp with a Peavey DECA 528 power amp (250 watts per channel into 4 ohms). Both cabinets are 8 ohms.
I bought the Hartke a couple weeks ago (really cheap) and really haven't had much of a chance to compare it to my other cabinets. The down side is that it weighs about 100 lbs which is too much for sorry back to haul around.
The Hartke is noticeably louder at similar volume settings with more mids (which surprised me) and stronger low end (which made me happy). Thanks to the much maligned Foster tweeter, the Avatar wins in the sizzle department...I like the brightness in moderation though. I believe that the Hartke is rated 99 dB (1W at 1M), a mere 2 dB more than the Avatar so it wouldn't explain the volume difference. I suspect this is just another case where the specs don't tell the whole story (adding even more credibility to Petebass' signature line).
Bear in mind that I haven't gigged with either cabinet so I have no idea how they speak on the bandstand.
I also possess an Avatar B210 and found it a nice compliment to the B212 by adding some high mids.