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Bag End Elf - Questions

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Fealach, Oct 26, 2005.


  1. Fealach

    Fealach Guest

    Apr 23, 2003
    Gone to a better place
    And yes, I've searched, and found plenty of opinions and some info, but not much for specifics. I have the chance to pick up a used Elf integrator (the 18 Hz one) plus a bunch of cabs. Read this site, and the Bag End site, but there's no actual manual that I can find, just specs. I know some people here have/have had them. I'm wondering if I could use it with the equipment I have or if I'd need to buy a slew of other equipment, which makes it less of a good deal.

    I've read how people have used them with Brand X preamp, into integrator, into power amps, into speakers. Great so far. I don't have any power amps, though I could maybe secure 1. Is it possible to adjust the signal strengths such that I could take the signal from my wireless (if it is powerful enough with its gain turned up) into the ELF, then run the split signals from the ELF into a solid state bass amp (Or the effects return thereof) for the lows, and into the front of my 400+ for the rest of the signal? I'm not going to ditch the 400+ to buy a preamp for the ELF, so I won't buy it if it can't work with a head.

    If it is possible to use it this way - I can get either the s18e or the d12e. The d12 is 4 ohms, the s18 is 8. Other than that the specs are almost identical. Any difference? Is one any better? Same price.
     
  2. Akami

    Akami Four on the floor

    We used an ELF between the mixer and power amps for the PA and I'm sure that is where you would want to insert it in your bass chain.
    Maybe someone here has used it for bass?
     
  3. Fealach

    Fealach Guest

    Apr 23, 2003
    Gone to a better place
    That's the problem... everything I've read leads me to believe I'd like it, BUT I use heads, not pre/power setups, and regardless of the great price I can get, if I have to buy a boatload of gear to use it it's not worth it. I can get my signal up enough to go into the integrator, but then comes the problem. I don't want to give up my 400+, I just want the extra low kick from the Elf to add to it and help it out by taking the lows away from it.
     
  4. billfitzmaurice

    billfitzmaurice Commercial User

    Sep 15, 2004
    New Hampshire
    Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
    ELF works by trading sensitivity for extension. For each octave of extension you need to add 12dB of power. For instance, if you use 100 watts at 100 Hz and want the same output at 50 Hz it will take some 1600 watts.
     
  5. knuckle_head

    knuckle_head Commercial User

    Jul 30, 2002
    Seattle
    Owner; Knuckle Guitar Works & Circle K Strings
    The processor is both an EQ and crossover of a sort and it will function best if it has a dedicated amp or side of a stereo amp for the low frequencies.

    The system works like this; the ELF cabs have a similar response curve across all the different ELF-capable cabs that the integrator is designed for. The integrator compensates for the drop off in low end response by upping the output to match the downward slope of the response curve. It crosses over at a specified point (you can select this point) and gives you the option of using the upper frequencies minus those that the sub is to deal with, or using the full range of a split signal before the integrator (I like the performance of the latter personally).

    If you can run a signal in to one half of the 400+ and dedicate its power to the ELF cab you are golden, otherwise you will need a power amp on the other side of the integrator. There will be those that will argue with me but you are best served on the ultra low side with a solid state amp as they have a better time with recovery rates than a tube amp does.
     
  6. BruceWane

    BruceWane

    Oct 31, 2002
    Houston, TX
    OK.........You have a 400+ and a solid state amp, right?

    Run your bass into the 400+; the 400+ has a "slave out" - run this to the input of the ELF processor. Run the output from the ELF to your solid state bass amp. Then run the 400+ speaker output to your regular bass cabs, and the output from the solid state amp to your subwoofer/ELF speakers.

    This way you have your normal bass tone - full range - from your 400+ rig, plus additional lows from the ELF rig.
     
  7. Fealach

    Fealach Guest

    Apr 23, 2003
    Gone to a better place
    Thanks for the info. I'll still have to see if I can swing it financially, but it sounds like it might be worth a try, I'll be able to return it if I must. I'd be running the subs with the solid state head. I'm mindful of the power issue, I figure I'll only know how much I like it if I try it.
     
  8. winston

    winston Supporting Member

    May 2, 2000
    Berkeley, CA
    http://www.bagend.com/bagend/downloads/elfguide13w.pdf

    Have you seen the above link? There's some good info on how ELF works. It was on the "discontinued products page" of the Bag End, as the ELF has been replaced by the INFRA system. I'm not sure what has changed beside the name.

    I worked for a while as a soundman on a ~20 KWatt Bag End ELF sound system. Used a combination of Quartz 4x18 subs plus a bunch of the single 18 boxes, with Crystals and a variety of 1x15 + horn cabs on the top end. I've heard louder systems but never one with the ELF's warmth, speed and punch. With most ported subs you hear the attack of a bass note but not a clear ending to it. With the sealed ELF/INFRA subs you get a very tight, quick reproduction of the start AND finish of a note.

    Like Bill F. was saying you'll need lots of clean power to take advantage of ELF/INFRA. You get super low and little/light so you're giving up low. I do have to say that if you plan on using the ELF on stage that sound people may hate you because such low, clear notes will probably leak into just about every mic and cause serious feedback/rumble issues. Keep us posted!