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Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Wxp4759cb, Mar 16, 2002.
How would this work as an instrument sub?http://www.bagend.com/infrasub12.htm
Damn...that looks pretty good. Maybe the single 12" wouldn't move enough air for live instrument performance? I'd be very interested in this if workable. Integrated amp+ELF....run my DBX 120XP into that and look out.
Yeah I thought it looks pretty cool! It would be really nice not having to lug around a seperate power amp, and elf processor! 400 watts probably isn't enough for some people, but it would be more than enough for me.
as long as yer moving enough air with that 12" 400w would be plenty. Is it 400w into 4 ohms or 8 ohms I wonder...that's an 8ohm speaker for sure. If you're just putting 200w @ 8 ohms into it (likely) you wouldn't be very happy. Too bad there is no ELF output, only HP from what i can tell. Still...a pretty interesting option I'd say.
You'd kill that thing in about 5 minutes running a bass through it at any kind of useable level. It's a home stereo box. It's for program material in the nearfield. Not for on stage bass amplification. I expect that the transients and dynamics from a live bass would give that 12 a serious case of over -excursion. My experience is that that type of stuff just doesn't work. Bagend makes excellent stuff but I'd stick to dedicated bass cabs for bass amps.
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the infra sub in question would be made to the same spec's as the live audio stuff. The only difference seems to be the finish. You could probably get a carpet-covered live audio version??
I think something that can handle 8 hz at 400w would handle my bass just fine...their theatre stuff are basically the same as the "musical instrument" products...just different shells.
I didn't see anything in its specs to suggest that it's anything other than a home stereo sub. I think that Bagend would have put "musical instrument sub" or something if it was meant for that. It's probably not voiced for bas guitar for one thing, and getting a whole bunch of sub level with program material is a whole different ballgame than getting the same results with a real bass which would have much more dynamics than cd/DVD/whatever. I see this every day. With a PA system I can get way more average level with a disc than I can with a band, because bands have so much more dynamics than recordings. I'd check with Bagend before I bought one for bass. I expect they'd say it wasn't a good idea. Again, just my (somewhat educated) $0.02.
unless you intend on sitting on that thing while you play, it would be worthless.
Don't confuse "400W amp w/ response to 8Hz" with "handles 400W at 8Hz".
Besides, 400w means nothing without knowing the efficiency of the driver/box.
I'm sure there's much more to the "Home Theater" rating than the finish.
My bet is that would make a great addition to a 1x10 coffeehouse rig, but would not handle anything louder than that. I'd also guess, though, that it's got a built-in protection system and will just self-limit and/or shutdown if you push it too hard. Yes, there it is: "Preset threshold Concealment circuitry".
PS read the data sheet. Absolutely *no* mention of the maximum SPL level acheivable! And they know it, I'm sure. They are honest enough to point out that 8Hz is meaningless in a box that small because a) you can't hear it and b) it's not loud enough for you to feel it!
Based on the following quote:
"To acheive flat response, as shown in Figure 1, full amplifier power is used at the lowest frequencies and very little (<1Watt) in the upper frequency range"
I'd guess that the maximum output at 30-40Hz is less than 100dB. Say the system has an 88dB efficiency at 95Hz (for a long-throw driver in such a small box, I think I'm being nice).
Looking at the response graph of the ELF integrator, it's about 27dB of boost at the maximum. So, indeed this is about 500x the power. 32Hz is at about 12dB of boost, so at 400W you'd get 100dB output. 40Hz. . .8dB boost, OK I'm corrected that's about 104dB.
BUT without any information on whether the driver can handle the excursions at that level, I can't say if it's capable of that (that is simply what the volume would be if all 400w was pumped out at 32/40 Hz).
Also the max possible output at high (95Hz) frequencies would be about 112dB. Or, the same as 10w into an Eden 4x10.
Having said all that. . .I'm intrigued by their claims about phase response in the very low-end (more important for hi-fi than bass). It'd be nice if they published the group delay curve!
I beleive it that is generally accepted that Bag End has acheived some amazing standards when it comes to low end reproduction...you aren't doubting that are you geshel? Their ELF systems are outstanding when applied towards a "musical instrument" context and are used by many players as their stage cabs of choice. They make 10's, 12's and 18's that are flat down to 8hz. Lowend reproduction requires a load of juice to be sure but I have never heard any Bag End proponent say they are "quiet" or incapable of decent SPL on stage. I hear these comments about the ACME stuff often; great low end but just not that "loud."
I don't know if this little cab would be of much use live but I am sure if it was indeed 400w into 8ohms (the most likely resistance rating for that speaker) it could be viable? I don't know a huge amount about speaker design....seems like you're fairly versed? I guess all I am saying is that based on BE's previous designs, speaker excursion wouldn't be a problem?
It's a sealed box. The group delay will be far superior to any vented box.
It's also got massive equalization - who knows what the result of that is? I'm guessing it's probably pretty good, but still I'd like to see the graph.
The ELF system isn't anything terribly revolutionary. Their MI and PA designs are in much larger cabinets - 1.5 cu ft is tiny! An ELF 1x18 or 2x12 in a 4 cu ft box is one thing. Anyway I know they have a good rep. I'm just going on the info they gave me and my experience and knowledge in the area.
Also compare to Bob Carver's Sunfire subwoofers - they use a very similar system (tiny box, high power w/ large equalization). But the drivers they use are very special (something like 2" of linear excursion), and they use a little bit more power (2700 watts ). The bigger model with two 10" drivers and 2700 watts puts out a peak of about 110dB, but they don't qualify the frequencies.
I think we really agree - it wouldn't be much use live. I'm sure it's a very nice Home Theater sub.
I did a, 'not very technical test,' with my ELF 18". With preamps set flat and using the open B on the Lakland I managed 114dB as the overload indicator on the ELF-M started to glow. Using a Radio Shack SPL (If I remember correctly it was A weighted) at one meter.
Using a Stereophile test disk and the SPL meter the output was steady down to the lowest signal, 20Hz.
In actual playing the gain at the 2402 to the sub is down at about 1'oclock in order to intergrate with the D10BX.
ok..so what would be your best case scenario for a compact, seriously subsonic and portable (ha! the clincher!) speaker system? I am personally hoping for a good deal on an active subwoofer that I can run from the output of my DBX 120XP subharmonic synth. I already own a Mesa M2000 and two Eden 2x12's and would either use one cab w/ my new sub. I don't feal like buying some huge new power amp to lug around....
But the D10BX isn't a 18"? I'm a bit confused.
The predominant frequency produced by your low B was probably either 60 or 90 Hz, my bet is on 90. (It must not have been A-weighted because A-weighting cuts off the bass significantly, starting at -3dB at 500Hz and down by 20dB at 90Hz and -40dB! at 30Hz ).
I'm sure the response was flat down to 20Hz, because that's how the system is designed. You didn't, by any chance, measure the loudest 20Hz signal you were able to produce with the system?
subsonic -> slower than sound
infrasonic -> lower than audible frequency
Anyway to answer your question . . .beats the heck out of me! Either the BE or one of the Sunfire subs would be "pretty loud and deep" in a small package. But neither will compete with an Eden 2x12. To get equivalent levels at very low frequencies from such a small box would probably take another 10-100 times the power. Unfortunately then you'd need to carry around your own power supply. . . (Mr. Fusion!)
I do need to say though that I probably underestimated the base sensitivity of the INFRA-12 driver/box. The Bag End S12E is a 12" in a 1.4 cu ft box w/ sensitivity (at 100Hz) of 92dB. Looking on the chart on their webpage, it's around 82dB at 30 Hz, translating to 108dB at 400W (again, assuming the driver can handle it).
from a bass playing point of view i dont think the infrasub would work.