Bag End S12-D or S15X-D

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by jock, Jan 5, 2001.

  1. jock


    Jun 7, 2000
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Is Bag End S12-D any good. I´m going to use it with a 15" sub (EBS). Or should I get the coaxial 15"(S15X-D). It costs $250 more.
    Whats the difference soundwise?
  2. brianrost

    brianrost Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 26, 2000
    Boston, Taxachusetts
    The S15 will sound a bit deeper, and if you get the coax version will also be much brighter. It's also much bigger and heavier.

    The main reason to get the 12 over the 15 is to have a smaller box to lug around.
  3. VicDamone


    Jun 25, 2000
    Read, "Acme To Quiet-Trying Bag End," by Captian Wally. He say's most of the folks at BassNW are using Bag End 15's.
    Be aware, there's a big difference in frequency responce between a 15" subwoofer and a regular 15" cabinet.

    I dissagree with anyone stating that a larger driver will go lower or sound deeper. In many cases the stated frequency response of a larger driver cabinet is less when compared to say a 2-10 by the same manufacture. It's safe to say the larger driver will sound different though.

    I use 2-10 and a 1-18 subwoofer. I don't need volume but I get top to bottom frequency response, which sounds louder to first time listeners.

    Hope this helps
  4. brianrost

    brianrost Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 26, 2000
    Boston, Taxachusetts
    Yes, but if you look at Bag End's specs (at their site) or if you actually LISTEN to those cabs (I have) then you'd know that the 15 sounds deeper than the 12 IN THIS CASE.
  5. VicDamone


    Jun 25, 2000
    Re. Brainrost

    As you said, "sounds deeper." As I said, "sounds different." Hears why.

    I had the oppertunity to evaluate a store full of bass cabinets using my Wadia CD player with volume control, QSC 2402 power amplifier, the Stereophile test CD Vol. 2, and my trusty Radioshack digital sound level meter with a tripod mount.

    While I was unable to place the SPL meter exactly equal distances from cabinet to cabinet, due to the different grill configurations, it was close.
    Also the load each cabinet presented to the amplifier was slightly different. Since I wasn't trying to confirm the manufacturers stated sensitivity I used the same amount of amplifier and CD player output for each test.

    Using the test CD bass decade worble tone from 80Hz for volume output and the decention of tones down to 20Hz while watching the SPL meter drop allows one to roughly judge the cabinets lower frequency response.

    Of course this isn't high tech testing but it did reveal some grossly exaggerated claimes by a few of the lower end manufactures. The biggest lesson learned was you get what you pay for. None of the, what most people here concider higher end cabinets, failed to meet there claimed specs.

    For the sake of this post I will disscus the comparision between these Bag End cabinets.

    D10BX-D 40-20kHz (-1dB@40Hz) 100dBspl 4 ohms (3.4ohms)
    D12R-D 50-5kHz (-2dB@50Hz) 103dBspl 4 ohms (3.2ohms)
    S15X-D 50-20kHz (-2dB@50Hz) 103dBspl 8 ohms (5.9ohms)
    S18-D 50-2kHz (-0dB@50Hz) 101dBspl 8 ohms (5.8ohms)
    S18E-D 8-95Hz 96dBspl 8 ohms (5.6ohms)
    (note: the S18E-D subwoofer has additional gain from the ELF-M processor and its output was actualy rising past 20hz!)

    My conclusion was that the Bag End product line preform better than even there claims.
    The 2-10" rear ported small and simple box cabinet deffinatly went lower but not quite as loud as either the 2-12" or the 1-15."

    In actual playing it became a personal choice. If I were choosing one cabinet the 15 would be a great choice. As it turned out I went home with the 2-10 and the sub system as I don't need the volume.
    In a loud situation 2-15" cabinets and the currant to drive them would be killer.

    So, Brianrost, while I'm not right and your not wrong. I do trust your ears, and my method. When auditioning any speaker system without a meter and a test CD its easy to confuse loudness with responce. In the end the overall sound (your ears) should be the deciding factor.

    Jock...since your already going to use a sub you should audition the 2-10 as well as the 2-12.
  6. VicDamone


    Jun 25, 2000

    I ment to ask you about your fiddle. Who made it? Pickups? Pizz, archo, both?

  7. MikeyD


    Sep 9, 2000
    Hi, Vic - very interesting post. I generally like your idea, but it inspired a few comments.

    Having some experience with professional sound level meters, and I'm not sure how well one can count on Radio Shack's to give the straight dope. The really good ones use condenser mics and cost over $1000 (US); the other thing is, you have to consider the weighting network. Does your meter only measure dBA (A-scale)? If so, it filters out a lot of the low frequencies. Maybe you know all this already, but a lot of other folks don't. To do the low frequency measurements you mentioned, you'd have to use C scale or linear (unweighted). The catch is, these will start picking up stuff in the background you can't hear, like rumble from heating or A/C in the building - or a nearby train or truck rumbling past.

    It's good that you mentioned these things, but there may be other factors at work, too - like reflections from other surfaces in the room. Even when a room seems pretty dead to us, it can still be fairly reflective at very low frequencies, because high frequency sound is more readily absorbed by most soft surfaces. As you know, the reflections can create standing waves, which then make the measurements extremely sensitive to changes in the position of the mic or the speaker. Using a warble tone helps, though. Also - if you were testing one cabinet sitting alongside a bunch of others, you have the adjacent cabinets (cones and ports) vibrating and adding to or subtracting from the sound level!

    Interesting - but I wonder if they performed their tests in a more anechoic environment than you did, and so you may have been seeing more reinforcement from room reflections at the ultra-low frequencies.

    This was interesting to read. It would be really cool if some magazine were to take a bunch of cabinets into a real acoustics testing lab and run them through a batch of standardized tests and publish curves and plots for us! Wishful thinking.

    - Mike
  8. VicDamone


    Jun 25, 2000

    Your absolutly right. In fact I shouldn't even use the word testing, maybe, "somewhat controlled comparing," would be a better choice of words. Yet the comparison did show the five bassist present, eating bad food and swilling beer, which cabinets went lower and/or louder.

    The Radioshack SPL meter has both A and C weighting and a condensor microphone built in all for the Realistic price of under $50. The meter simply allowed us to get a rough idea of how much the volume was droping on all the cabinets equaly.

    The room. While not at all anechoic it was industrialy large. The cabinet to be, "compaired," was placed with it's baffel in line with a reference tape centered on the floor about 15' out from the rear wall. The other cabinets where not near this area until the playing comparison. HVAC was not in use.

    While my son's boom box seems like it does more bass than my Hi-Fi, when you put on some actual low bass information through the boom box it can't reproduce it. I belive this is the same thing Brianrost is hearing when he compared the 12" and 15" cabinets. Although in our comparison they were very close.

    Again this was not ment to be anything more than a comparison for our own information. The best part was having five different genres of music represented. So do you go with the 12 or the 15? Depends.