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Bag End Speakers Are Weak

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by PolkaHero, Feb 14, 2004.


  1. PolkaHero

    PolkaHero Supporting Member

    Jan 5, 2002
    Michigan
    I can't help but love these cabinets (S-15Ds), but the stock speakers Bag End puts in them have gotta change. After blowing my first cabinet several years ago and replacing it with a 600 watt Carvin speaker, my second cabinet which I bought about 6 months ago finally gave up today. Can't get another Carvin in time for next weekend's gig, so I ordered an Eminence Delta (400 watts) through AMS. I'm running 1000 watts through both cabinets. I'm actually surprised the stock BE lasted this long.

    Why can't these guys put speakers with a little more guts in the power handling department?! I know that aluminum Hartkes have the same reputation. I know a bunch of you are going to tell me how you pump all these watts through your BE cabs and don't have any problems. More power to you!!

    It's great that BE has a 6 year transferable warranty which includes speakers. I'll probably take advantage of it and then sell the wimpy thing on Ebay as soon as I get it.

    Sorry for the rant. . . :crying:
     
  2. nonsqtr

    nonsqtr The emperor has no clothes!

    Aug 29, 2003
    Burbank CA USA
    "I'm running a thousand watts through both cabinets."

    Dude, you can't be complaining when you're massively overdriving your speakers that are only rated at 200 watts each.
     
  3. Aaron Saunders

    Aaron Saunders

    Apr 27, 2002
    Ontario
    I believe that just shot down your entire rant, PolkaHero.
     
  4. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    Can I also ask if you checked into the T/S parameters of the replacement speakers? Chances are the speakers you're buying as replacements aren't designed to be happy in a cab the size of the BE? Not to mention any likely porting adjustments ............

    Those Eminence Detla 15's need BIG cabinets. I hope this BE is about 12cu.ft?
     
  5. john turner

    john turner You don't want to do that. Trust me. Staff Member Administrator

    Mar 14, 2000
    atlanta ga
  6. Mike Money

    Mike Money Banned

    Mar 18, 2003
    Bakersfield California
    Avatar Speakers Endorsing Hooligan
    I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts...
     
  7. cb56

    cb56

    Jul 2, 2000
    Central Illinois
    I've been running 500 watts through my Bag end 15's and they handle it easily. I know several others around here do the same with no problems. 1000 watts per cab????
    :meh: That may be pushing it.
     
  8. nonsqtr

    nonsqtr The emperor has no clothes!

    Aug 29, 2003
    Burbank CA USA
    Yeah, ditto here. Those Bag End's are way underrated.

    In my personal experience, if you can push a speaker to two or three times its rated power, that's a pretty good speaker. Five times the rated power might be stretching it a little, I don't know of too many speakers (even EV's) that would survive that. :)
     
  9. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    Is it too late to cancel the order on the Delta 15's. If this BE cab is about 2-3cu/ft (which is more realistic than 12cu.ft), get a selenium 15SWIP. It's a much better driver for what you're doing.
     
  10. The Selenium are a well kept secret, as are the Beyma drivers.

    I've seen the Bag End up close after getting smoked. The voice coil was welded into the gap. Tee-rashed, for sure.

    The cab appears tuned at 70 Hz. Just the thing for a 5-string bass at 1,000 watts..

    :D
     
  11. PolkaHero

    PolkaHero Supporting Member

    Jan 5, 2002
    Michigan
    I'm running 500 watts through each cabinet. Doesn't Eminence make another driver for smaller cabinets? Where does one find these Selenium drivers you're talking about?


    I'd imagine the Carvin 600 watt I have in the other Bag End has about the same parameters as the Eminence I ordered. I really couldn't tell much difference in sound between that and the original BE driver. Maybe a little less top end, but that's all.
     
  12. PolkaHero

    PolkaHero Supporting Member

    Jan 5, 2002
    Michigan
    Okay, found some of the speakers you guys are talking about. A little pricey for me, but I did find another Eminence Delta, the 15LF which might work better for my BE cabinet.

    It's compliance equivalent volume is 186.1 liters vs. the 293 liters of the "regular" Delta 15. Does this mean that it works better in smaller enclosures? It also handles 100 watts more power and costs only $5 more through loudspeakersplus.com!

    Any opinions from you speaker gurus? :meh:
     
  13. cb56

    cb56

    Jul 2, 2000
    Central Illinois
    hmm.... that's the same as what I'm doing. Of course I'm not cranking my amp and beating my bass. Of course you probably aren't either if you are in a polka band :D
    nonsqtr, aren't you pushing alot more than that through your Bag End's or about the same? I'll keep an eye on this thread to see how things work out for you Polkahero just in case I ever have the same problem. but so far my speakers seem real happy. I had a thread a couple years ago (I think) about how much power Bag End users were putting through their cabs and they all seemed to be putting at least double the rated 200 watts. Maybe it's time to revive that thread and see if anyone else is having problems.
     
  14. Saetia

    Saetia

    Mar 27, 2003
    Wisconsin
    186.1 Liters (7.66 cu feet?)? that seems like a huge cab to me, correct me if I'm wrong. But I remember when I was looking for a driver to replace the blown one in my GK 115, the cab came to 77 liters and the cab is a managable size but 186.1? I took my cabs specs 77 liters over 5482.5 cubic inches (3.17 cu feet?) and (X) [variable] over the Bag End's specs 5304.875 cubic inches (3.06 cu feet?) [I used outside dimensions because I don't know the thickness of wood they use] and used cross product (cross multiply and devide) to get a cab that is somewhere around 74.5 liters. To me it seems you would be using a speaker that needs a cab that is just about 2.5 times larger then the cab you have. I could be totally wrong and missing a crucial part or something here, but that driver doesn't seem like it would be a good replacement. Like I said I'm probably wrong, and I'm just learning about all of this stuff. So please bgavin or Petebass correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  15. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    I suggested the Selennium because I thought you were running 1000watts to each speaker. It's an 800 w speaker that seems to be able to take the whole 800 watts without hitting x-max (ie Distortion). That's why it's so expensive. But your chances of killing it are very low. You won't need to replace it any time soon - so in the long run the cost is justified.

    On the flip side, the reason cheap speakers are cheap is because many can't handle their rated wattage without distorting. Take the 15LF you're looking at. It's a 300w speaker which according to Bgavins spreadsheet, hits x-max at a mere 100W. You're pumping 500w into it so how long is it going to last? It also likes a cabinet of 10.5cu.ft.

    Lets do this the easy way shall we. What are the dimensions of the BE cab? If we know this, we can give you a list of compatible drivers with pros and cons. You can then decide on a speaker based on the old perforance vs budget thing. Then we can help with the porting.

    I know it seems like a lot of mucking around but if we get it right now, you won't have any dramas in the future.
     
  16. Saetia

    Saetia

    Mar 27, 2003
    Wisconsin
    Dimensions:
    18.5"h x 18.5"w x 15.5"d


    The reason I'm following this thread so closely is because I'm trying to learn more myself.
    peace
    -Ben
     
  17. PolkaHero

    PolkaHero Supporting Member

    Jan 5, 2002
    Michigan
    Saetia's dimensions are correct. Also, the port in the back of the cab is about 5 1/2 inches in diameter. The entire inside of the cab is lined with dampening material. I downloaded bgavin's CAD program but it is beyond me right now. And I need a speaker by next weekend!

    Cb, I'm in a polka band, but it's a hard-driving, Chicago push-style band. Also, my style is kinda unorthodox as I utilize 16th note runs, and double stops in certain sections. The bar chords are what really take up power and abuse speakers. :bassist:
     
  18. I'm no speaker guru but I have found that Parts Express (http://www.partsexpress.com) has the cheapest prices on most speakers that I've found. The Eminence Delta 15LF is $83.09 at Parts Express compared to the $104.99 at Loud Speakers Plus.
     
  19. Petebass

    Petebass

    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    I'd be looking at the following:-

    * Eminence Kappa 15c, 450w, tuned to 31Hz, -3dB at 75Hz.
    * Beyma 15G300, 600w, tuned to 32Hz, -3dB at 73Hz.
    * Eminence Kilomax 15 Pro, 1000w, tuned to 31Hz, -3dB at 49Hz.
    * Beyma 15K200, 300w, tuned to 27Hz, -3dB at 62Hz.
    * Eminence Kappa 15LF, 600w, tuned to 39Hz, -3dB at 47Hz.

    Of these, the only one that can take 500Watts without hitting X-max is the Kilomax 15 Pro (600w). The next best is the Beyma 15k200 with 300w, closely followed by the Kappa 15LF with 279 watts. The Beyma 15G350 can only take 139w. The worst performer is the Kappa 15c with a mere 39 watts.

    I haven't run any simulations on these. All this info is straight off Bgavin's excellent spreadsheet.
     
  20. cb56

    cb56

    Jul 2, 2000
    Central Illinois
    Cool. Every once in a while one of those polka bands would make it down to my area. I know alot of those bands enjoy "rock star" status up north.

    BTW I though there was a thread earlier about how the 15's in the Bag End cabs WERE emenence speakers. Thus the E15 model number.