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Bag End woofers' experiences?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by De Teng, Oct 30, 2003.


  1. De Teng

    De Teng

    Oct 27, 2003
    Utrecht, Holland
    Just one topic more and I'll be quiet for some time OK? I just called a store, which had a few speakers left (Bag End) for just a real bargain.

    It's the 2.10" woofer and the 2.12". The first costs half the price of the second one, so may be you can share your experiences about this stuff? :D

    D-10E-I or the D12E-C
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Although the people at Bag End claim that the 12' is made for instruments, the guy at the shop said I could also use the 10'. The 12' has carpet on the outside, the 10' doesn't. Oh yeah... 20 vs 37 kg.[​IMG]
     
  2. Nightbass

    Nightbass

    May 1, 2001
    Seattle, WA
    The guy at the store is not very familiar with Bag End stuff, is he... Neither of those cabs is what you want if you are looking for a standalone cab. They are ELF subwoofer cabs, and can only be used with the Bag End ELF integrator (which is very expensive: USD 700). If you got a regular 2x10 or 2x12, then yes, those 'E' cabs could be used for massive low end but you would also need to buy an integrator and a power amp.

    The 'I' stands for install - no carpet, just black paint on plywood. The 'C' is black carpet. Normally you'll see a 'D', which is the Deep Red carpet series. They can all be used for bass and sound wonderful.

    Nightbass
     
  3. g4string

    g4string Supporting Member

    Sep 19, 2002
    Melissa, TX
    Nightbass,

    You are incorrect about the ELF-M2 processor. Any Bag End subwoofer will operate normally with out the ELF integrator. The ELF is primarialy used when for a three way system. It will act as a crossover, limiter, and will drop the subs down to the lower freq. rating. The 10" and 12" cabs De Tang is describing I think would not benifet from udsing the ELF and would work just fine with out it. Bag End states that any ELF subwoofer can be used with out the ELF integrator. FYI, the ELF series is now called INFRA. ELF and INFRA are the same thing.


    De Tang,

    If you are getting a great deal on either cab I would reccomend buying both. Since you live overseas from America I do not think that you are going to see too much Bang End stuff and when you do find it, what are the chances that you will see at the price you see it at now. If I had to chooes I would say buy the 212. But, your rig would sound better with the 212 and 210 together.
     
  4. De Teng

    De Teng

    Oct 27, 2003
    Utrecht, Holland
    Alright guys... here's the point. I own a 2.10" with a tweeter (built-in coaxial-Deep Red Series) myself, so it's only needed for the low-end.

    For the bass guitar, personally I think the 2.10" will not give enough pressure (compared with the 2.12), which is also a critical point in a way. Or isn't it? That's the reason why you mention to choose the 2.12" G4string?

    Buying both is out of the question, hence I have too less money and the amp needs a minimal load of 2 ohms, which means that I can only connect one extra. Thanks for your comments! Next week I'm going to test them, so come on over with your opinions. :D
     
  5. lo-freq

    lo-freq aka UFO

    Jan 19, 2003
    The Republic of Texas
    I don't see any specs for these being used with out the processor.

    Go to the Bag End website, go to Sales and Services, click on W. Europe and there are phone numbers and email addresses for "The NETHERLANDS".

    Contact someone who knows their stuff and save the hassle.

    My experience with their corporate customer support has been excellent.

    Of course, playing through the cabs is a great idea as well, but you still won't know (altogether) how they will sound live with a real band in a club.
     
  6. geshel

    geshel

    Oct 2, 2001
    Seattle
    They won't put out any low-end at all without the processor. It's by design - the speaker/box combo begins to roll off around 80Hz, and the processor counteracts that.

    Well - depending on your idea of "low end", 80Hz might qualify - but I mean they won't be much good as subs under a normal cab without the processor.
     
  7. I dunno, i'd stick with the deep red series for bass guitar speakers.

    I've got a Q10BX-D, nd does everything i need it to, except real low notes. I admit, the thing doesn't handle the low B vey well, but that may have something to do with my amp, as well as other things.

    If you wanted more bottom, i'm sure the 2x12 would do you just awesome. More 10's WILL give you more bottom, but not as much as the 12's will.
     
  8. lo-freq

    lo-freq aka UFO

    Jan 19, 2003
    The Republic of Texas
    If the low end problem is with this cab, something is wrong with it. With sufficient power and clean signal, this thing should kill, period.
     
  9. De Teng

    De Teng

    Oct 27, 2003
    Utrecht, Holland
    OK, let's call above 80 Hz 'bottom' and below it's 'low-end'. Just to have that point cleared. ;)

    Concerning the price, you would also recommend the 12 when it's € 300 more? That 10' which I was talking about, would cost me € 299,-
    Talking about a bargain!

    (No... I'm not going to tell you where it is!)

    The second positive thing is: it is only 20 kgs instead of 37.

    In fact the only major problem is about the 10': It has no plastic corners or protectors and carpet. Just wood...which could damage quite fast I think.

    Thanks for the replies anyway, it really helps me out.
     
  10. VicDamone

    VicDamone

    Jun 25, 2000
    De Tang the Bag End cabinets your looking at are subwoofers that begin to emit sound below 80Hz. Thats about C on the A string. If your interested in a subwoofer system read on.

    Bag End subwoofer cabinets differ from most other subs in that they are in a sealed enclosure. While this does not provide a difficult load for most amplifiers to deal with it does make the seald box design a poor choice for a subwoofer.

    The Bag End Intergrator or processor shapes the full bandwidth signal from your preamplifier to provide the unique waveform these sealed cabinets need to preform. The Intergrator also provides gain in specific areas of the bandwith to enhance thier subs unusal output characteristics.

    Do you need the Intergrator to drive a Bag End "E" cabinet? Only if you want the system to work properly. Without the Intergrator the cabinet will sound like a subwoofer driver in a small sealed enclosure, sort of like crap. I have one and I've tride it. It does NOT work like normal.

    There is no free lunch with any Bag End Subwoofer system. What you do get for the price of addmission is one of the smallest, lightest, lowest frequency response systems out there. You also have the option to leave it at home when your sound may not be as critical to you. When shopping for subs you must factor in a crossover and an amp pluse the cabinet in the price.

    Keep in mind that a sub will only amplify the notes within its range. Everything at first position on the A string on down gets a serious boost.

    I often read people offering the general statement that larger drivers do the lows better. It's my experience that larger drivers may have a different tone or timbre but more often roll off sooner than, say a mulitpal 10" cabinet. Subwoofer drivers are the exception.

    I have a D10B-X and as good as it sounds it still rolls off. With the sub you not only get the lows most everybody here thinks there getting, but you also have control of the volume of those lows.
     
  11. De Teng

    De Teng

    Oct 27, 2003
    Utrecht, Holland
    Great reply! Very good to read that someone really tried to use it. Indeed... the guy at the shop didn't actually know what he was talking about, I understand now.

    I read about the INFRA system off course, but thinking I wouldn't need the driver, because without it, it would also sound good and do the job. So it doesn't. (The bargain which I was thinking to get... it's quite useless in fact.)

    Great thanks for the reply, although I'm a little down know, because I was thinking to buy a fantastic speaker for 600 euro's!!! :rolleyes:
     
  12. nonsqtr

    nonsqtr The emperor has no clothes!

    Aug 29, 2003
    Burbank CA USA
    What are you looking for, killer driving low bass? For that kind of money you can get an EVX-180A and an empty 18" cab of your choice, they're 8 ohms and handle a kilowatt. Makes your pant legs vibrate at twenty yards.
     
  13. My low end is fine, it'smy real low end that's the problem.

    If you look at the specs on the cab, it's supposed to put out above 40Hz. a low B, being below 40Hz doesn't sound so good.

    Is there something i'm missing?
     
  14. lo-freq

    lo-freq aka UFO

    Jan 19, 2003
    The Republic of Texas
    All the reports I've heard indicate the D10B* & Q10B* handle low B really well.

    [I only heard a D10BX-D one time at a store with another bass player using it with an Alembic BEADG 5 string & it did fine.]

    What bass & amp are you using?
     
  15. geshel

    geshel

    Oct 2, 2001
    Seattle
    Remember that the 31Hz in the low B is only the fundamental. The higher harmonics are actually louder. In my experience, a cab that goes down to 40Hz or even 50Hz can sound just fine on the low B. Loud, punchy, and low.

    Now, there is definitely something else that comes in when you add the fundamental - a real lowness. I get that with my Acme cab but not my EAs (45Hz rated response). However, I've used the EAs more (volume issues) and the B still sounds great.
     
  16. nonsqtr

    nonsqtr The emperor has no clothes!

    Aug 29, 2003
    Burbank CA USA
    I play 5 strings through BagEnd S-15 and S-12 cabs. Never had a problem with bottom end. The subs come out mainly for outdoor gigs, that's when you really need power to get a low note from point A to point B. It kinda depends on the sound you're after. I don't like "too much" fundamental, but I like people to know I'm there :):):)
     
  17. VicDamone

    VicDamone

    Jun 25, 2000
     
  18. De Teng

    De Teng

    Oct 27, 2003
    Utrecht, Holland
    Then you should listen to a live performance of Richard Bona and band. I agree that most players cannot use the low B effectively in the music, but he does! Sometimes you just need a low note and then he pumps it out of his Fodera bass. I saw him yesterday at the European Bassday. Enormous!

    Anyway... on topic again: I understand that a normal 15" or 2.12" (or 2.10"... etc..) would be better for me than that Bag End speaker. ;)
     
  19. geshel

    geshel

    Oct 2, 2001
    Seattle
    Ah, but see you don't even know what frequencies you're really measuring. It's just a plain fact that, in the signal from a low B from almost (if not) all bass guitars, the 2nd and 3rd harmonics are much louder (5-10dB) than the fundamental.

    http://www.cafewalter.com/cafewalter/signals/basssignals.htm

    Both of those are within the range of the Infrasound system, at least the 2nd harmonic definitely is. In all likelihood, what the meter was measuring was dominated by the 62Hz component.

    I will look up the details to make sure, but I don't think a single S18E is capable of 114dB at 30Hz.

    Yes - you can see here that the sensitivity of the S18E is roughly 83dB at 30Hz. This means it would need 1000w to reach 113dB at 30Hz. It's rated power is 400w, and anyway I doubt the cone could handle the excursion of 1000w at 30Hz. OK, not just doubt it, it can't.

    http://www.bagend.com/bagend/downloads/infra_spkr_sens.pdf

    With the processor in the system, the resulting response curve is flat, yes -- however it doesn't change how much power it takes to acheive a given volume (the processor just adds gain at lower frequencies).
     
  20. VicDamone

    VicDamone

    Jun 25, 2000
    Geshel

    Ah, you've got me alright. I do not posess a tone generating oscilloscope to know exactly what frequency is trigering my modest Chicken Shack SPL meter. I apologize for presenting such a half assed measurment for your approval. I'm saddened that your arithmatic on this subject regarding a conventional ported cabinet is so foolproof that you must incinuate that I'm exagerating or lying. Listen, I turned off my 2-10" gave the sub all of one channel from a clip limited QSC 2402PLX and the C weighted meter read 114dB. It absolutly over powers my D10 and it sounds perfect with a Q10.

    Regardless of the reading this system sounded so much better (to me) than everything else I auditioned that I bought it.

    I've posted this information many times here to people like Zentner who are interested in a product that is typicly not available for auditioning, and I will continue to do so. If I lost my rig I wouldn't hesitate to replace it with the same cabinets. With all the advancments in bass amplification I feel strongly that Bag End systems provide a great value, selection, and service. There's lots of stuff out there and lots of people playing it. I guess I just happen to like my stuff better. No big deal.

    Geshel,I've always respected your comments and information at this site. You've always seemed to report on first hand knowledge of one thing or another and you've helped me personaly. Have you strayed from that ethic in this case? Or was it that the measurment I made was so unbelivable? In any case I don't want to become your adversary hear, I'm simply not that good at technical sparing.