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"Bedroom" tone out in the real world

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by SteveC, Apr 6, 2009.


  1. SteveC

    SteveC Moderator Staff Member

    Nov 12, 2004
    North Dakota
    I think I know the answer, but what the heck...

    I get a great sound from my Genz Benz Shuttle 3.0 combo at home at low to mid volume. Full, thick, sweet. When I get out to gigs - with or without PA - I find when I have to crank it up a bit, it isn't quite the same - of course.

    I'm guessing I need more speaker surface. I know I can only expect so much from a 1x10. I love the small package, but I miss a little of the "presence" for lack of a better term.

    A bigger cab is my only answer, right?
     
  2. jobu3

    jobu3 Artist formerly known as Big Joe

    Feb 17, 2002
    Mountain Top, PA
    If that is what you like and you are only running half way or so, then adding another cab should do it.

    Adding cabs will always give you more volume. My problem usually stems from liking the way one cab sounds pushed a little and then not being able to match it when I add a second cab because of the cabs dividing the power equally and not getting the same amount of juice.

    Shouldn't be an issue for you though if you add the same cab and up the volume a little. And if that doesn't do it, you'll need more amp. :meh:
     
  3. SteveC

    SteveC Moderator Staff Member

    Nov 12, 2004
    North Dakota
    I've been debating another cab. People who use my amp say adding the extension 1x10 is amazing. Still very light and portable - and modular which is good. I think I'd rather have 2 1x10 cabs than 1 2x10 cab.
     
  4. 62bass

    62bass

    Apr 3, 2005
    Add the matching extension cabinet for the best sound and more volume.
     
  5. JimmyM

    JimmyM

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    Laws of physics don't change for anyone, even a decent guy like Jeff Genzler.
     
  6. sk8

    sk8

    May 10, 2007
    United Kingdom
    I've been surpeised at the addition of a VT BAss to my 3.0-10 combo. Its given it alot more presence and fatness for a signle ten. So much so that i had to disconnect the 112 neox i normally sling under it as it was just putting out to much bass in the church and cuasing people to complain :) This prbably has as much to do with floor coupling as the pedal itself but even at home it really has altered the sound i get from the combo. It has to be heard to be believed.

    As for another speaker the GB 112 Neox is great for putting out lowend and works really well with the combo's single ten
     
  7. SteveC

    SteveC Moderator Staff Member

    Nov 12, 2004
    North Dakota
    I tried the VT Bass at a store and didn't find it all that great. I'm in the minority there as most everyone seems to love it. Maybe I need more than 10 minutes with it.

    I have thought about a 1x12 instead of the intended 1x10 as an extension cab for more booty. Although if I'm going to do that, I could just as well trade my 3.0 combo in for a 6.0 2x10. I use that at our rehearsal room and it kicks butt.
     
  8. SteveC

    SteveC Moderator Staff Member

    Nov 12, 2004
    North Dakota
    True. I know a bigger cab or additional cab is the answer. I'd be more likely to make a change/addition if the gig situation looked better.

    Don't know why I started this thread as I knew the answer. Just thought I'd see what comments came about. The VT Bass is interesting. Stuff like that might change the sound but you still can't change the laws of physics.
     
  9. Play with the parametric midsection and the gain a bit.... you may be pleasantly surprised.
     
  10. sk8

    sk8

    May 10, 2007
    United Kingdom
    I agree but its done something though as i've had to turn the master down and disconnect the 12.
     
  11. G2K

    G2K Guest

    Jul 21, 2008
    Simcoe County, ON. CA.
    I have the 3.0 - 8T and added the 8" X cab. Pretty solid little Micro-stack. I was looking at adding a 2 x 10 4 ohm cab but bought a VT pedal (I am still messing around with it) I can say one thing, WOW
     
  12. agedhorse

    agedhorse Supporting Member Commercial User

    Feb 12, 2006
    Davis, CA (USA)
    Development Engineer-Mesa, Product Support-Genz Benz
    Your experiences mirror something I have struggled with for years. Regardless of brand or speaker size, it is still critical that you have adequate speaker (and power) for the job at hand. This is why the Shuttle series can drive extension speakers... scale the speakers to the task.

    When adding an (identical) extension speaker, you will improve the low frequency coupling by a couple dB, and just as importantly you increase the effective baffle area which extends the low frequency response.

    I encourage you guys to try an extension speaker and see how the performance changes. Let us know your impressions.

    Note... if the performance in the low end gets WORST, the extension cabinet is probably wired out of phase (reversed polarity). Some manufacturers do not follow industry standards (positive voltage yields cone movement forward) or a well meaning repair was done incorrectly and the wires got reversed. This is unfortuantely pretty common in a 410 cabinet with series-parallel drivers.
     
  13. Eublet

    Eublet

    Jul 28, 2006
    Hey, Steve. Didn't you go through this once last year? :D

    I carry my NeoX 212 to most gigs even though I only need about 25% of what it's capable of. It sounds like a real bass rig at lower volumes. The best compromise of that tone and feel in a small cabinet to me is a NeoX 112 or an Aguilar db112 just to name a couple. The Neox 112 is my favorite. While neither of those are particularly heavy, they also aren't extremely light. The NeoX is a little larger, but that's what makes it sound so darn good. Excellent sounding cabinet that gives lots of beef in a small package. The Shuttle 112 cab doesn't do that by itself. It's more punchy.

    I can't imagine gigging with a single 10" speaker in most any context, though I have tried it on occasion. It was very low volume, and I could hear fine, but it just sounded thin and uninspiring to me. YMMV, but I can't enjoy myself like that. In fact, I occasionally struggle keeping my LMII/Neox 212 from being too loud, running the master as low as 8 o'clock, and then having to turn the gain down below what is optimal. I do it cause I love a full, rich sounding bass. I no longer have a NeoX 112, and I miss it. I have a Schroeder 115+ that is GREAT when I need a small, light package that gets very loud. But it's not a full sounding cabinet.

    IMHO
     
  14. Brad Johnson

    Brad Johnson Supporting Member

    Mar 8, 2000
    Gaithersburg, Md
    DR Strings
    Bedroom tone that's only competing with a stereo vs. live tone that's competing with other live sound reinforcement. Big difference.

    Even if you can dial in the same bedroom tone at much higher volume, it still may not work in the mix.
     
  15. SteveC

    SteveC Moderator Staff Member

    Nov 12, 2004
    North Dakota
    Kind of. Just thinking about options...

    I'm torn. I don't have a problem using it by itself on jazz gigs. I kick in the "deep" switch and it's fine. Low volume, sounds fine. Not "all" there, but for the gig I can live with it.

    Same thing with PA support. It's fine, I get a little extra umph from the PA so I get by.

    I guess that sometimes I wish I wasn't getting by and long for a little bigger sound and cab. I just love the portability - and great sound - of the Shuttle combo.

    Bedroom tone may have been a poor choice of words. I work in the mix just fine but that is mostly because of my bass. I use the combo a a monitor only - except for jazz - and it works fine there.
     
  16. Eublet

    Eublet

    Jul 28, 2006
    Brad makes a good point, and one that bears consideration. I think you can approach a "bed room" tone in some situations depending on the venue and the other instruments you are sharing the sound spectrum with, and particularly how those other people are playing them. Having an adequate rig that moves a bit of air, even at lower volumes, is important to do that. Since a bed room tone is typically full and rich, then you have to have something that can do that at gig volumes.

    Even more important to me, or I should say others, is what I sound like to my bandmates. They're inspired when they can hear me, and I'm inspired when I hear them. If my bass sounds thin and weak, or like a piercing shrill in the back of their head because my rig is too small and weak to get the job done, then they won't enjoy my playing or the gig itself. Their playing might suffer as well. I've met very few drummres who don't want to hear and feel the bass a fair bit while they're playing. I don't like playing when I can't feel the kick drum a bit. It just makes it more fun and encourages everyone to play better. Even at low volumes, fullness of sound is important to me.

    My philophy is the music always comes first. The 2-3 hours I spend at the gig are much more important than the 30 minutes I spend loading in and out. If I have to move something a little bigger to make sure everyone enjoys that time, then I'm happy to do so. In fact, I get paid to do so. That doesn't mean I'm a glutton for punishment, so I do look for practical applications for lightweight gear, but not to the extent that it compromises on what I'm there to do. So I have some smaller, single driver cabinets that get a bit of use, and the 212 for most everything else. Both are very reasonable for me to move with minimal fuss.
     
  17. Eublet

    Eublet

    Jul 28, 2006
    It sounds like you just need an extension cabinet. Modulur rigs are fantastic. If you added a 112, that would give you three separate combinations you could use. If it were me, I'd opt for the fuller sounding Neox 112 to make sure you're covering the sound hole you feel you're lacking. You could gig it by itself with your Shuttle or with the 110 on top. It's much fuller sounding than the Shuttle 12, and feels like a big rig in a smaller, moderate volume package.
     
  18. DukeLeJeune

    DukeLeJeune rational romantic mystic cynical idealist Supporting Member Commercial User

    Nov 24, 2008
    Princeton, Texas
    Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
    One very significant difference between the bedroom and a performance venue is the reverberant field characteristics. This will change the perceived sound of the cab quite a bit. The reverberant field of one cannot realistically be duplicated in the other. For an interesting little illustration of how the reverberant field changes the sound from one room to the next, walk from room to room in your house talking out loud and listen to how the tonal quality of your voice changes. You can even finish up by singing in the shower (a small room with a strong reverberant field).
     
  19. Rick Auricchio

    Rick Auricchio Registered Bass Offender

    That beautiful bedroom tone may not be achievable in a louder live situation.

    The laws of physics, alluded to by Jimmy, are at work here. As you turn up the volume, room boundaries and modes begin to wreak havoc with low frequencies. You get huge boosts and cuts of bass in the room.

    At low volume, these effects are less severe. At band volumes, they're a problem. This is made worse because what you hear onstage has very little relationship to what's happening in the audience.
     
  20. Rick Auricchio

    Rick Auricchio Registered Bass Offender

    When I built my BFM Omni15, I had to be careful to wire its polarity to match my Eden D112XLT cabs. This caused me to actually test the Edens. They were fine, but it's good to know for sure.
     

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