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Behringer Europower 2500 / QSC RMX 2450

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by mlowe, Apr 3, 2005.


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  1. Hi All,

    I was looking at some power amps and as many of you have said good things about the QSC gear I had a look and the memory triggered.

    The specs are not close but identical to that of the Behringer 2500. If this is the Behringer rip off I'm amazed that Behringer didn't just rub out the QSC logo and put on theirs.

    I show my wife the manuals and photos and even she could she that one is an imposter.

    I remeber one of you guys saying that the QSC guys are
    really good designers. That they make clever circuits etc.

    I've only looked at the RMX apms and they are quite amazing as in flexibilty and power. Here in Australia the cost is also very reasonable considering the specs. $2000 here.

    You guys in USA talking about $400. Send me a dozen.

    Anyway, this is one time I see that Behringer do appear to have either accidentaly made about 500 parts all line up in the same pattern as QSC or they are a QSC customer that ripped it apart and photocopied the whole kit.

    What do you guys see here or have experienced with these two amps. I'm asuming the QSC is the real deal get what you pay for even though it's cost is very good.

    Has anyone tried one of the Behringers. The reason I ask this is because I can't even build one for the same as the Behringer. Human nature to think the first thing is that the quality stinks but the power supply and power trans etc are all quality. Also, the few Behringer bits I've looked at closely appear the same.

    They want $800 here for the Behringer as the QSC RMX 2450 is $2000. The only difference I've noticed in their quoted specs is the THD on the QSC is better. Apart from that they appear siemese twins.

    QSC really should to talk to their lawyers if this is the case. I'm all for bang for buck, but blatent pirates don't deserve to prosper from other hard work. And desiging these types of equipment is long and hard work.
     
  2. Bob Lee (QSC)

    Bob Lee (QSC) In case you missed it, I work for QSC Audio! Gold Supporting Member Commercial User

    Jul 3, 2001
    Costa Mesa, Calif.
    Technical Communications Developer, QSC Audio
    You noticed that too, eh? ;)
     
  3. Hi Bob,

    I did, and it wasn't because of all the hype here either. I tend to remember specs like that when I'm doing a comparitive purchase.

    I would love to purchase an RMX or PLX. It, at this stage is on the top of the list. I do however have some gripes about the cost here in Australia as to the USA.

    This issue is nothing to do with the Behringer issue which in my opinion is wrong and QSC should if possible take action. Then again it takes your focus away from electonics engineering and more to legal engineering. Not good for us that want to buy innovative amps.

    I do have an electronics education background and do understand at least some basic design processes. I do have a problem with the whining some poeple who can buy your gear local in the USA. They complain about a $600 amp!!!!

    What is there to complain about. It's amazing how cheap they are there.

    That same amp here is $2150.

    Anything american made here is a million dollars more and it's getting really old. Behringer apart from the ethical issue seems to overcome this problem.

    If it's because it's made in china then why is the RMX so expensive here in comparison to in the USA.

    The exact price I'm quoted here for the RMX 2450 today is $2150. Thats a lot of coin even for an amp that spec. Thats why the Behringer looks good at $800 except for the ethical aspect which I must admit does bother me.

    Many guys on here seem to think everything made outside america is no good. It's not a good thing to portray to someone who doesn't reside there.

    As an external customer I like american product in general. I do notice a pride and quality about it. I would like to buy it. But the bottom line is it must be at least near the target.

    I'm not talking about being close to Behringer. I've built many power amps. I do understand they cost money in parts and that all there is to it.

    But, as I have said in the other B bashing thread $600US does not equate to $2150AU. The distributor may be getting too greedy here. QSC's responsibility to make the sales channel as clean as their amp. Amps THD 0.03, dealer channel THD 300% in permant clip.

    Maybe another distributor should be made in australia in regards to muscial instrument sales. The distributor at the moment seems to be into million dollar audio suites. Bass players are in a different market all together.

    The guys on here on not doing QSC any favours with this debate as apples are being compared with pineapples.

    The only other option I have is buying from the US and hoping it doen't fail. I'm sure it won't but is this the correct way to buy this product. I'm thinking not.

    I don't know what to do. Do I buy Behringer and save a packet. Yes the quality will be less than the QSC but is it enough to worry about. Or do I buy the QSC and spend heaps more that someone living in the USA?

    :(
     
  4. Marlat

    Marlat

    Sep 17, 2002
    London UK
    FWIW both the Behringer and the QSC RMX are made in China - look at it this way - you can make the ethical purchase of 1x QSC and have a reliable amp that will last you a long time etc. Alternatively you can make the more dubious purcahse of the Behringer and invest the $1250 in a tabacco or firearms company and make even more money of other peoples suffering ;)

    (or you could save the cash to buy another Behringer when the first one craps out on you - possibly before the QSC does)
     
  5. I hear you,

    I'm just so over hearing the whinging about the cost of gear when we pay multiples of the guys in the us. And the assumption that anything not made in TCOTU is second rate. The Behringer thing is a little different in that it is a mirror copy and is seriously making me consdider spending the money in respect to the people at QSC. The only thing is would they do the same for us. Given many of the attitudes on here at the minute I'm not convinced they would.
     
  6. Marlat

    Marlat

    Sep 17, 2002
    London UK
    I just buy my gear from the USA and therefore pay as much as the guys in the States for my gear (plus a little more shipping). You should be able to pay US prices for a QSC amp provided you make sure you get the 220v version and not the 110v! :D
     
  7. Is there much in the way of import duties etc? I would prefer to buy a QSC especially in this case. I understand that the distributors here do need to make a cut to support for warranties etc, but over $1000 for one amp is a bit rich.

    Thanks for the advice too.
     
  8. notanaggie

    notanaggie Guest

    Sep 30, 2003
    Hmmm....

    I always thought they were "copy machine versions" of QSC also, having seen one or two inside.

    Now you say that the pattern of the PCBs looks the same, which is what I thought.

    But then there was a link on TB a while back to a site where some respected person had actually compared, and said that in his opinion they really were nothing the same....

    Did he just look at the wrong unit?
     
  9. That's a good point. I looked at only the specs and they were the same with exception of the distortion spec.

    Has anyone actualy opened them up side by side? Maybe a music shop here may have that opertunity to do so and give some feedback.

    :bassist:
     
  10. Mezzoid

    Mezzoid Guest

    Apr 10, 2005
    maryville, tn
    I like to think of behringer as the modern day robin hood of music gear. Steal from the rich and greedy gear manufacturers and give to us poor musicians. I'm biased because I love behringer gear. Never had a problem with it and it sounds good. Maybe the sound is sweetened by the fact that it is such a good deal, but I love it just the same.
     
  11. jondog

    jondog

    Mar 14, 2002
    NYC metro area
    If you search the Pro Sound Web boards, you'll find an engineer who opened both up and took pix. They are not exactly the same, I remember the QSC toroid transformer is larger, but they are close. He tested the Behringer and concluded that it worked well.
     
  12. ironfist

    ironfist

    Feb 5, 2000
    Here in the USA it's a no brainer between the two amps. The QSC is just slightly more expensive and worth every extra penny, and in the long run $100 doesn't really amount to much in terms of gear. I've talked to a couple of Behringer power amp owners and they all say that the Behringer's power ratings are optimistic as best. The QSC's are actually realistic.

    I do understand how it can be a whole different ballgame when you're talking about $2000 versus $800 though. I can't blame people for going with their wallet when they need an amp and simply don't have the funds available to spring for the real deal.
     
  13. BurningSkies

    BurningSkies CRAZY BALDHEAD

    Feb 20, 2005
    Seweracuse, NY
    :( :( :( :(

    I hate these 'morality threads' too...but...it kind of upsets me that you'd think of all 'gear makers' in such a way.

    Rich and greedy indeed.

    I dunno directly, but I'm gonna guess that QSC isn't making a mint offa their gear. I bet they do ok, but I don't think any 'specialized' equipment market is a quick walk down the proverbial yellow brick road. We're not talking about Sony or RCA or any 'big' multinationals here...Last I heard QSC or Ashdown for example weren't diversifying into record labels, etc.

    Working in the copyright field (publishing), I find it sad that theres not that much legal recourse for this kind of dubious 'reverse engineering'...to protect the product originator for these kind of situations.

    I dont' think that Behringer is a Robin Hood of a company, more of a short cut to that golden brick road for themselves. But then, however people wish to mythologize things is up to them. :)

    Buy what yer happy buying. I just wouldn't have as much peace of mind.

    Bob Lee...How expensive is it to change the oil in that solid gold Benz yer drivin'?
     
  14. Joe Beets

    Joe Beets Guest

    Nov 21, 2004
    This bantering about the Behringer and the RMX is silly. WAKE UP!!! You don't want to buy either one of them. What you need is the PLX Series. At least the PLX2402 and preferably the PLX3402. ;)
     
  15. sneaky pete

    sneaky pete

    Feb 10, 2002
    Yakima, WA
    Aren't there other amp manufactures out there in AU? Dynacord, Australian Monitor, Alto? I'm geussing cuz I dunno. If you can get anything Dynacord you're set. The price difference is pretty extreme for the RMX vs ripoff. I've used the Behr's in a live sound setting and I still wouldn't buy one. It didn't blow up but half the other behr gear in the rack isn't holding up well. Besides, why put a behr piece in a mission critical spot like power?

    Other amps I'd consider but don't know about would be PV DPC1400x, Soundtech PS1602 (802), EV 2.0kW (I have one, basically it's a Soundtech PS1602), E&W PS2000 (www.audiopile.net). I'd like to get another QSC CX502 to match the one I already have.


    p
     
  16. fdeck

    fdeck Supporting Member Commercial User

    Mar 20, 2004
    Madison WI
    HPF Technology LLC
    Are these pics on Web anywhere?

    I once had a day job where a competitor reverse engineered our design and came out with a copy for a price that we could not match. You could not see the difference. The two products were identical, except...

    The copy barely functioned when tested next to the original. The competitor did not know our secret manufacturing technique that actually made the product work.
     
  17. Our fellow TB'ers have given the RMX good reviews. But in my case I have decided to use the PLX 2402 as it is perfect for the cabinet combinations I will use. And as you guys have used them and have given good reviews I feel very comfortable with it.

    This amp won't be a short stop so I'll just spend the money and stick with it. I have very little doubt my requirements will ever go beyond this amps specs.

    The power amp that I'm using at the moment have equal amounts of power but is extremley heavy to lug around in a rack. 40-50lbs alone.

    I also like the attenuation module you can buy for the QSC's that allows some custom power output safety.

    In regards to the Behringer/QSC copy thing, I'll say nothing but take a look for yourself. Look very carefully at the entire unit, doc, rear including the dip switches for config and make up your own mind.

    I think theres sort of two sides to this.

    1) How many different ways can you build an amp. Usualy best design do tend to converge. So a class H is a class H and the guts will look alike, ok maybe a different shape.
    2) There are things about these two amps that are exactly the same that has nothing to do with basic amp design. This is the real indicator.

    This debate is really old and I think everything that could be said has been said. We just tend to go sour with this topic.

    At the end of the day I think if I ever have a problem with the QSC is was just bad luck and bound to happen. From what I have read, I'm still yet to see a poor report on this amp.

    Even then their support I heard is very good. I have called Behringer support to answer a basic question and it took over a week to get the answer.

    There is a few made here in Australia but I have no idea on how well they do.

    Cheers,
     
  18. I think your the first person to truly understand my point.
    Cheers.
     
  19. I agree there is a market of people including me that has benefited from being able to buy a Behringer product when cost was and issue and the quality wasn't the most important factor, but if you think about those who are "investing" in new design to further improve our equipment, we don't want them to go bust.

    It's not only in their best interest to flurish as a company but ours. If the product does have a failure and they go under it's not good either.

    The question is who really is the pioneers of designing our gear. To me, some of the gear would be almost impossible to patent a design as it may be one of the only ways to make it well.

    Let's face it a 4x10 looks like a 4x10. But if some smarty came up with a new cone material that was lighter and sound better then patent would be wise.

    Only the other hand we can now get class d amps that weigh nothing and make huge power and low distortion because some brave and clever individual decided not to go the easy way out and innovate instead. Do we really want these type of people to not make enough to survive?

    We'd have no Edens, Sadowsky, or Fenders!
     
  20. Rav

    Rav

    Dec 29, 2004
    Aurora, IL

    I did a quick check. QSC reports to the SEC that they are a 300$ Million dollar a year company with 250 employees. 1 Million plus per anum per employee isn't exactly poverty.

    -Rav
     



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