Behringer threads...

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by CoolHat, Apr 8, 2004.

  1. It seems that hardly a day passes by without a new thread about Behringer that quickly turns into a heated discussion about world economy and ethics. Personally I´ve grown tired of them. People get irritated and tempers rise; I fear that someday we will have a major flame war in our hands.

    I´m not taking sides here, but I feel that people should have the right to discuss the technical aspects of B-gear without guilt trips and such.

    That said, I do understand the views of the anti-behringer crowd too. They feel that they are obliged to inform all possible Behringer buyers about the big picture. Fine, I respect that. But there´s no reason to have the same rants on every thread.

    Remember, this is the interNET. We have this wonderful thing called the LINK at our disposal.

    So here´s my proposal: let us have a sticky for all the ethical discussion about Behringer. The topic shall not be discussed elsewhere. And whenever somebody feels that they absolutely, positively must remind people about the moral issues, they can provide a link to that very thread.

    How does that sound?
  2. Ericman197


    Feb 23, 2004
    Dude, Behringer is evil.
  3. Shri


    Feb 25, 2003
    France, Paris
    i've heard that behringer combos were not reliable enough from people working in a the business. They had too many combos coming back to be changed or repaired. They are pretty cheap so the quality is not very good apparently. But i also have a friend who has a guitar Vamp (like the pod) and he's very happy with it!! I also know some people who have behringer bass combos and like them, especially for the money they spent in it.
  4. i have a bx3000t head 300 watts its more powerfull than the hartke 3500 and thats 350 watts, what the hell?? and it sounds great i use it with my avatar 2x10 and avatar 2x12!
  5. Well, while I get tired of the Behringer bashing too, it's people's opinions, passionate ones at that. If someone comes along asks for people's opinions on Behringer equipment (I know, I know, rare case :p ), then everybody is going to weigh-in, including the bashers.

    However, I do agree that most of the time, the topics steer away from the technical aspects and more into political ones. That, however, is more of a problem with thread-hijacking in general. What do ya do? :bawl:
  6. metron

    metron Fluffy does not agree

    Sep 12, 2003
    Lakewood Colorado
    i also think it goes too far sometimes...
  7. Why not close any Behringer thread with a link to a locked thread or a simple:
    "there are tons of these threads- do a search"? It's done often enough in the other forums on TB.

    They do bring out the worst in all of us. If you think you deserve a cheap amp regardless, no one's going to change your mind. If you think they're stolen garbage and killing the economy no one's going to change your mind.

    Politics, Religion and Behringer! :D
  8. I was going to buy a BX1200 but then i found a roland Db500 for $69 more... does that make me a better person? :D
  9. BruceWane


    Oct 31, 2002
    Houston, TX
    In my book, yeah, it sure does. Caring about right and wrong is a good thing.
  10. It's not just the politics and the criminal nature of Behringer's business practices; whenever quantifiable technical commentary of their products is discussed, it's immediately dissmissed as "bashing." Behringer sucks; I don't buy their products, and I discourage others from doing so as well because I disagree with their business practices. That doesn't influence me when I pop the hood on one and see where they've cut corners. I've talked about WHAT exactly is wrong with their products, but they have so many ardent "defenders" (some are likely plants shilling the stuff) on this board, ANY negative comment towards them is immediately attacked by the same group of Talkbass posters who seem to be MUCH more enthusiatic in Behringer's defense than even Bob Lee has been in any "attack." They use the same circular logic over and over, and ignore real discussion.

    If anyone needs reigning in over posting, I think that maybe it out to be those newly registered with just a few posts to their credit (which are curiously mostly in defense of Behringer) who complain incessantly about someone like Bob Lee who has firsthand experince with the issue. I don't always agree with Bob Lee, but whatever gripes I've had against his posting towards me, he hasn't exhibited them in reference to Behringer. His specific data about specs, construction, plagiarism and component quality are a far cry from the oft-repeated and many times discredited comparisons to Essex/Fender or Sadowsky/Fender. It's funny that almost the same posts, word for word, end up being repeated at the end of most Behringer threads even when they have already been bought up and refuted earlier.

    So what's the problem? Do only the 'popular' viewpoints get airtime here? Discussion is good and if you don't want to read a thread, don't click on it. It's not that hard to do. There's no need to call for censorship simply because a small group of people have a strong difference of opinion.
  11. It isn't an issue of censorship. CoolHat is just sick of every thread getting burried in someone screaming about behringer's business practices. I think his solution is brilliant.

    If someone asks a question about behringer gear and there is a technical issue that you would like to share (hopefully based on experience and factual evidence) then by all means share it. Beleive it or not, when people ask if behringer gear is good or bad, they want to know if the gear is good or bad, and why. Seems like a simple concept to me but people can't seem to grasp it. They aren't asking about the moral implications of buying gear from companies that use cheap foreign labor or any of that.

    If you must include a little note about how behringer is evil because they do this or you shouldn't support them because they do that, than a simple link to one of the other myriad threads about it should do just fine. There's no sense in hijacking every thread and cluttering it with the same information. If people are interested in behringer they've probably read it all before anyway, in one of the existing threads.

    I understand that people sometimes defend behringer gear irrationally and that is unfortunate, but why contribute to the mess by starting a fight in every thread? If you provide some facts and good ideas about behringer gear being not-so good and then someone responds "shut up jerk!", who's opinion do you think will come through as more useful? Exactly.

    In summary, CoolHat gets the prize for best idea of the day. The quicker people follow through with it, the better in my book.
  12. The problem is going OT. I believe that staying on topic is a good thing. That way information can be found easily.

    But it´s not about that. It´s about clicking a thread for acquiring specific information - only to find that the (possible) answer is buried under pages and pages of something else. This has nothing to do with popularity of opinions. Making a topic "sticky" isn´t a political but functional choice.

    C´mon, it´s not about censorship, it´s about people finding the information they want. It works other way around too: the moral discussion would be much easier to find and follow if there was only one thread dedicated to it - just as there is a thread called "Show your basses". I´m not asking for censorship but better organisation. I think it would be better to have one big "the morals of B"-thread than numerous smaller ones revolving around the same thing.

    And BTW, in this and my original post I am only referring to the ethical discussions about Behringer. Ranting about B´s technical inferiority is a whole other issue. Nothing wrong with that if it´s actually about the products in question
  13. And I'm saying that the discussions ARE on topic and that it's mostly the "defenders" who seem to be intentionally bogging down the threads. There has been LOTS of technical and anecdotal information offered to Behringer's detriment and it's usually immediately dismissed, ignored, and buried. Behringer doesn't merit a special thread or status.

    Yes it most certainly IS about censorship. Since you've identifed yourself as having the contrary opinion to mine about Behringer, you have yourself made a comment in support of them, but all you want those who are sickened by their business to be able to do is post a link to past discussion. That's a double standard.

    Those of us who find fault with Behringer should be just as free to comment as those who are more interested in cheap gear without regard as to why. Besides, who will get to define what constitutes "bashing?" If past threads are any indication, ANY negative comment of any kind directed towards Behringer fits the prevailing description if it's allowed to be defined by Behringer fans.

    Threads progress in a sort of 'net stream of conciousness' and that defines their context. Removed of that context, they lose relavance and meaning. By allowing only linking as a negative commentary on Behringer, you remove the context of the comment. The ability to link to past threads already exists and has been utilized as the posters have seen fit. If they felt an additional comment was warranted, you have no grounds to dissmiss that comment simply because you disagree with it.

    The two topics are inextricably intertwined; Behringer's business practices have a direct and meaningful impact on the tone and reliability of their products. By removing the aspect that Berhinger steals other companies' designs and build thems to cheaper standards, you remove any argument against buying their products in favor of the ones they have copied.

    I don't like "organization" after the fact. If a poster choses to put information in a thread and it does not violate any posting guidelines, you have no right to request it be moved simply because you disagree with the content or topicaility thereof. Those are decisions made by the moderators, and notduane has already commented in that capacity.

    There are LOTS of duplicate threads on TB. Some bring to light new info; most don't, but unless several poeple request a merge, they remain separate entities complete in their context. Try looking up 'old SVT versus SVT CL' sometime.

    And since the two have causal relationship, to ignore one is to fail to accurately address the other.

    Interesting choice of words: "ranting." That sums up what I've been trying to illustrate in its entirety. You brand negative discussion of Behringer as a rant, which immediately negates the credibility of the comment, no matter how accurate it may be. The moderators have the ability to move, modify, and delete posts and/or threads. Just because you personally don't want negative commentary on Behringer in any thread concerning them does not mean that you should have that ability as well.
  14. Behringer steals designs!!!!
  15. One of their mixers killed my cat and threatened my dog!!!
  16. bmc


    Nov 15, 2003
    I am so sick and tired about reading about the QSC episode. Can we have an indication of how many more times do we have read about QSC/Behringer? Just a rough estimate. It's kinda like a broken record.
  17. Stinsok

    Stinsok Supporting Member

    Dec 16, 2002
    Central Alabama
    Here is a solution: Have 2 Behringer mega threads. One devoted to those sharing experiences (good /bad, horror stories, etc.,) and those who have questions about them. The other devoted to people who want to wail on Behringer for stealing designs, etc. That way is someone asks a question about a Behringer product the thread does not get hijacked and end up with "Free Tibet!"
  18. There's also Ashdown/Behringer, Mackie/Behringer, Aphex/Behringer, etc, etc. Get the picture?
  19. If I post a hypothetical question "Is the BX3000 a decent head for small gigs; I want to buy new and I've only got $220 to spend?", it's probably relevant to talk about quality. that's not bashing. But how/why is it relevant to talk about Ashdown and QSC (or any other head that's not around $220 and suitable for small gigs)? Sure, the Behringer may be a copy. Sure, the Ashdown may be better. But if the Ashdown costs $400 that is *not what the poster is asking about*.

    When the debate starts going to the political/business realm, in most cases they are ignoring the actual question which is being asked. if someone is aking "is this a decent amp for the money", why not simply try to answer the question? If people want to post general pro- or anti-behringer comments, thats a political or economic debate, not an amplifier debate per se.

    What he means by Behringer bashing is this: there is some group of people for whom Behringer products would be perfect, just as there is some group of people for whom they would be ridiculous. If you NEED the power of the bx3000, you NEED to buy new, you're willing to sacrifice some quality, and you only have $199, you don't have many other options. A behringer basher is one who, faced with taht exact question, would say "well it may meet all your stated needs, but you shouldn't buy the Behringer anyway".

    the converse would be someone who keeps posting Behringer 1200 reviews in the "best combo under $1200-- should I get Eden?" threads. To tell the truth there don't seem to be as many of those people here.

    It's all well and good to have moral and ethical views about how things _should_ be in the business and amplifier world. but when those views start making it well-nigh impossible to get answers about how things _are_ (for those who need information) it's time for a separate thread.