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Bergantino offset speaker placement

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Justybuddy, Mar 19, 2013.


  1. Hey guys,

    I remember reading a thread while ago about the reasoning behind the offset speaker placement in Bergantino cabs, and its advantage over traditional cabs with their parallel and perpendicular speakers.

    I haven't been able to find the thread...does anybody know where that would be, or the reasoning for the Bergantino design? Thanks!
     
  2. Mr. Foxen

    Mr. Foxen Commercial User

    Jul 24, 2009
    Bristol, UK
    Amp tinkerer at Ampstack
    Offset means they fit in a different shaped cab. Being off the centerline gives a better dispersion pattern
     
  3. Do you know where any stats on the subject could be found?
     
  4. Mr. Foxen

    Mr. Foxen Commercial User

    Jul 24, 2009
    Bristol, UK
    Amp tinkerer at Ampstack
    Look up 'baffle step'.
     
  5. There is a lot of interesting information to be found on the subject of the baffle step, which I would like to familiarize myself with, but I'm still not finding what I'm looking for. There was a specific article or conversation that I had read, which I believe was written by Jim Bergantio describing his reasons for the speaker offset which is found in all of his cabinets, with the exception of the 410...as far as I know. The article was talking about the 'classic' cab designs such as the 410, 610 and 810 and how the design was sonically flawed...for some reason...and the reasons why speakers being off the center line solves that sonic...irregularity of sorts.
     
  6. Forrrest

    Forrrest

    Mar 10, 2013
    any multiple driver system will result in comb filtering caused by phase cancellation (a ratio of distance between speakers to frequency half cycles). the trick is to not to re-enforce these holes by layering the same combs (ie using the same speaker distances between each speaker). So ANY symmetrical speaker layout (NV412 is guilty too, but less i guess) emphasizes the flaw. Wouldn't the ideal speaker layout be one where no speaker distances are ever equal?


    Edit for fun, i wrote this out, so might as well post it:


    i do not know of this post Jim made, but i'd like to read it as well.
     
  7. kringle77

    kringle77 Supporting Member

    Jul 30, 2004
    Massena NY
    In practical use, the only advantage of the staggar is to get the drivers closer to your ear. In any meaningful way, other than that, there is no advantage. I've owned all the berg staggard cabs except 2 and MANY 4x10's. There is no real difference. When all drivers are in a vertical columb, you will hear a difference. There have been several threads on this.
     
  8. Forrrest

    Forrrest

    Mar 10, 2013
    yeah vertical cabs are probably the worse because the combs will overlap due to the equal ratio of the distances

     
  9. KJung

    KJung Supporting Member

    I think the offset helps just a little with beaming in that relatively small slice of upper midrange up until the tweeter kicks in (basically half way between 'side by side' and 'pure vertical), and allows for a VERY nice form factor... wide enough for a full size head, and very shallow front to back.

    The upper midrange beaming, IMO is quite overstated on this site (once you get to 'audience distance' from the cab, the beam has spread quite a bit, if you look at the plots... mostly a near field issue anyway, at least with bass guitar). Jim's vertical offset 212's and 210's sound good and even both straight on and moderately off axis (given his lower than typical tweeter crossover). Zero issue for me.

    Very nice boxes. Since EVERY speaker design is a compromise, I view Jim's form factor and voicing as close to the best balance of great tone, size, form factor and acoustical science.:bassist:
     
  10. Nope............

    Why do you think all the best modern PA's are vertical arrays.
     
  11. Forrrest

    Forrrest

    Mar 10, 2013
    The modern vertical PA's line arrays use speakers designed for poor vertical dispersion. They also use phase compensation technology. This isn't technology in the realm of the passive bass cabs that we're talking about here.
     
  12. Really.........

    Then why do all the speaker builders and engineers recommend a vertical bass stack for LESS comb filtering and better dispersion ?
     
  13. Arjank

    Arjank

    Oct 9, 2007
    Above Amsterdam
    E.g. when stacking two regular 210's vertically instead of horizontal you get less comb filtering in the horizontal plane, but the system starts to act(from a certain frequency on) as a line array in the vertical plane (thus more comb filtering in the vertical plane).
     
  14. JimmyM

    JimmyM

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    They don't use phase compensation to give PA's better dispersion. They use it to combat phasing issues. Sorry, but you are completely wrong about vertical arrays not being better for dispersion of highs and mids. I've heard it with my own ears. It's better dispersion every time.

    Now, to change the subject and belabor Ken's point, is dispersion of highs all that important? To some it is, and that's cool. To me, not so much. Not a big treble guy, and any time I don't have a PA for bass, my rig sounds exactly like what I want it to sound like in the house. I have a double 210 vertical stack that has pretty good dispersion, but when I run a cab rig where the dispersion up high gets reduced due to beaming, it still has plenty of treble for my tastes and no problem with the high mids. So I don't sweat beaming.
     
  15. JimmyM

    JimmyM

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    Guess you better not climb ladders when you're listening to a concert ;)
     
  16. mystic38

    mystic38

    Dec 4, 2012
    Mystic CT
    a vertical array allows for the best possible horizontal dispersion.. vertical however is another matter..
     
  17. JimmyM

    JimmyM

    Apr 11, 2005
    Apopka, FL
    Endorsing: Ampeg Amps, EMG Pickups
    But my little joke above your post was a way of saying that vertical comb filtering isn't near as annoying as horizontal since most of us aren't climbing ladders during a show.
     
  18. chadds

    chadds

    Mar 18, 2000
    :)
     

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