Bergantino TOO Colored?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs [BG]' started by Larzito, Jul 10, 2003.

  1. Larzito


    Aug 1, 2000
    Dallas, Texas
    I've had a Bergantino stack (1-15/2-10) for over a year now. Seems I've always been fighting for more midrange. I'm starting to think the Bergies are TOO thick and don't cut with finesse (bludgeon tone) in a loud gig situation. I have to boost the lows/low-mids to bring the rig alive, which obviously masks the upper mids. I'm a fingerstyle player in my current gig situation (rockin' country)using a Modulus Q5. Anyone else experienced the "sounds good by itself" "doesn't cut with the band until I torture the crowd with volume" scenario? I've thought about trying a stack of the beloved GS1-12's, but am hearing they are scouped. I previously used Eden gear, which sometimes gets slammed for its "low-mid hump," but I'm starting to realize why it Eden humps like it does. I want something light and portable, otherwise I'd continue to lug my 410XLT. Any suggestions? Any similar experiences with Bergantino?
  2. Aram


    Feb 2, 2003
    New York, NY
    What amp are you using?
  3. my S12 + S15 BagEnds mid punched like nothing else.

    I'm moving into a pair of 12" Bergantino thou
  4. emjazz

    emjazz Supporting Member

    Feb 23, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    Yeah, I'm very curious as to which amp you are using. I've never had a problem with any combonation of Bergs that I've used. They always cut through. And I have to say that I don't find my 112's too scooped in the mids at all. Actually, they are quite punchy and can be used in any musical situation. Best little speakers I've ever played, hands down.
  5. Larzito


    Aug 1, 2000
    Dallas, Texas
    I have both an Aguilar DB750 and an Ashdown EVO 500. I like the Ag, but is not as EQ flexible as the Ash. Plus the Ag weights as much as the cabs! Hey 'jazz, the Berg 12's IMO, are all about cut. But they don't do it for me in the bottom end in a loud band situation (I rarely go through the PA). I was referring to the Aguilar 1-12's in my post. The Bergie 1-15/2-10 stack, on the other hand, seems to have a gap in the usable mid area. When I bought this stack, I quickly realized my WT800 wasn't enough power (and you can't bridge it mono down to 4 ohms...drag). So I tried a Demeter/Hafler rack setup. Nice sound...when the Hafler worked. Got frustrated with the lack of reliability/multiple cord big ol rack thing and got the Ag. Got the Ashdown cause my back told me to. The Ashdown puts out enough power (master volume never goes past 12 o'clock). I just want sweet, natural mids, but still want booty and articulation.
  6. Jim Dombrowski

    Jim Dombrowski Supporting Member

    Jan 16, 2002
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Based on my experience with a Berg 2x12, I'm thinking that maybe the problem is in bass, or the amp. What kind of bass are you playing? What kind of strings? How old are they? It would be cheaper to try some new strings versus a new speaker.

    My Berg 2x12 cuts through everything.

  7. emjazz

    emjazz Supporting Member

    Feb 23, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    My suggestion to you is to add a Raven Labs True Blue EQ to the Ashdown. It will give you what the Ashdown EQ cannot.

    I like the Berg 12's better than the 210 myself. I've owned both and I like the midrange of the 12's better.
  8. Aram


    Feb 2, 2003
    New York, NY

    I don't think either of those amps are enough power for the 210/115 setup...if i'm not mistaken, each of those will only provide about 300 watts max (if that) for each cab.

    Before you scrap the bergies -- try bridging a QSC RMX 2450 or PLX 2402 (or similarly rated amp) into both of them...I am willing to bet you will notice a huge difference. I wasn't sold on my bergie 210 until I bridged my power amp. Then WOW! :bassist:

    give it a whirl...


    edit: PS -- the amps I mentioned will give you about 1000w into each cab in bridge mode...not that you will use full power, but the Bergs need some pushing to open up.
  9. jerry

    jerry Too old for a hiptrip Gold Supporting Member

    Dec 13, 1999
    I have NO problem cutting through with any of my Bergie cabs:cool:
  10. Larzito


    Aug 1, 2000
    Dallas, Texas
    I play a Modulus Q5. Changing the strings helps, but we are talking about the overall vibe of the cabs...which is always a matter of personal taste. I'm just curious if anyone else has experienced the same "maybe the sound is too thick or colored" for its own good. This stuff sounds SOO good in the store, so why am I fighting it at home and at gigs. Maybe I should live at the store and play all my gigs there:)
  11. emjazz

    emjazz Supporting Member

    Feb 23, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    Have you been able to try other combonations of Berg cabs live? I used to have the same Ashdown head with two 210 cabs. I used one of the cabs most of the time. I thought the sound was killin! I never had a problem cutting through. Have you tried to adjust the tube gain on the Ashdown? If you push it more than you will get more grind and it should push through a loud band. Make sure you're using a good speaker cable and instrument cables as well. What kind of music are you playing?

    If you continue to have a problem then you should definately call Jim Bergantino. He's a fantastic guy and he may have more suggestions for you. In all honesty those cabs together are more mid shy than his cabs with 12's. That goes with any company's 210/115 combo. You should just look into getting one HT322. You'll never need another cab again.
  12. Larzito


    Aug 1, 2000
    Dallas, Texas
    While my Hafler was in the shop, I used a QSC PLX3402 as a loaner. I ran the volumes at 3 o'clock. Keep in mind the "power amp specification voodoo factor." With the Ag, master volume never goes above 9 o'clock (seriously, the Ag may spec at 750 watts, but its super powerful) The Bergies like the power of the Ag better. The Ashdown is kinda like GK, they perceptibly put out far more power than their wattage ratings state. I know Bergie's LOVE power. I regret never bridging the QSC mono while I had it, I ran it stereo so I had a volume for each cab.
  13. Is your main problem not being able to hear yourself clearly? If you haven't already, you might try getting your speakers up off the ground.

    I use a EA CXL-112 and I've found that putting my speaker on a 2 ft. stool has made a big difference in being able to hear myself clearly on stage.
  14. James G. Ellis

    James G. Ellis

    Jun 22, 2001
    I had the same setup as listed: ABM 500 into Berg 2x10/1x15.
    The cabs farted like nobody's business when I had the Ashdown set on the same settings as my SWR cabs of the same configuration. Never could dial out that fart, so I sold 'em.
  15. Aram


    Feb 2, 2003
    New York, NY
    Hey Larzito,

    Not sure then why the Bergs are letting you down -- maybe the overall vibe, like you said, just isn't for you. If you can though, you might want to try someone's power amp in bridge mode just for the hell of it to see if it is lack of clean power (or amp clipping) that's displeasing you tonally...

    In my setup I have had the best luck running my QSC in bridge mono (so 1300w into the 210), keeping the power amp volume all the way up, and adjusting the volume on my Demeter '201s (it's usually below 9:00 as well). It sounds infinitely better than just running one channel of the QSC (which was like 500w). I usually keep the preamp eq flat, and adjust the tones via my bass's preamp (bartolini). I find the sound to be smooth, with plenty of lows and sweet highs -- if i need more low mids, I crank up the onboard eq, which is voiced at 250hz, and I can cut like it's nobody's business.

    Otherwise you could call Jim and see if he's had similar complaints with your configuration. He seems to correspond with everyone who owns his cabs, so he must have come across this issue at some point.

    Anyway, I hope it all works out for you in the end -- i'm curious to see how you resolve this issue...keep us posted.

  16. lo-freq

    lo-freq aka UFO

    Jan 19, 2003
    SW, OK
    Don't be afraid to experiment with some weird settings on your amps.

    I have an HT322 with a Dem 201S pre and QSC PLX1602 power.

    I kept searching for a tone that was clean and cutting in a live situation. Took me about a month of experimenting, but I finally found a combination of preamp and bass guitar (SR5) settings that I totally dig.

    Do talk to Jim B., he can probably help.
  17. Petebass


    Dec 22, 2002
    QLD Australia
    I had this same conversation recently over the email with a fellow TBer. I know exactly where you're comming from.

    The way I deal with it is to start the gig with flat EQ. I don't even try and pull a sound with the bass on it's own. It's pointless. Then I EQ to suite the onstage mix.

    It may sound bad on it's own that's irrelevent unless you're playing on your own.

    Oh and EQ with your ears, not your eyes. Ignor the shape of the EQ curve and ignor people who tell you it "looks" funny.
  18. chadds


    Mar 18, 2000
    See the post on flat frequency resp. I also play with no EQ on my amp and let the bass do the talking. In a live setting you may be pleasantly surprised. I am thankful that bassists are becoming aware that the boutique bass sound by itself is not appropriate for live settings. That the inherent coloration in some equipment translates to musical pleasure in the mix. THE SEARCH FOR YOUR SOUND CONTINUES....
  19. tombowlus

    tombowlus If it sounds good, it is good Gold Supporting Member

    Apr 3, 2003
    North central Ohio
    Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
    If this is your goal, and if the Bergies have too much coloration for you, then I would suggest either EA or Accugroove cabs. I have a bunch of the VL series cabs, and I have had a chance to check out a number of the Accugroove cabs in a store. Still haven't had a chance to A/B the Accugrooves to my VL series cabs, but I am looking forward to doing just that! :D

    I also own a pair of Epifani cabs (T-112/T-110UL), which i consider to satisfy the "sweet, natural mids with booty and articulation" factor very well. However, when I bought these, I was torn between either them or an Accugroove Mini Whappo. I'd have to say that I slightly preferred the sound of the Mini Whappo, but it was close, and the flexibility of two lighter cabs (especially that feather light T-110UL) won me over. And while the Epi's did meet all of your criteria stated above, the Accugroove cabs were definitely less colored. In truth, even though they cost a goodly bit, those Accugroove cabs are very, very impressive.

    I have had a chance to A/B my Epifani Mini Rig to my EA cabs (2 VL-210's, 3 VL-208's). While both setups are very articulate and balanced, it is striking how differently they are voiced. Compared to the EA VL series cabs, the Epi's sound upper-mid shy (though I wouldn't have thought that this would be the case, based upon how the Epi's sound compared to other cabs). Compared to the Epi's, the EA's seem to lack high end "sparkle" and low end thickness (although the VL-210's sound deeper, just not as thick). Of course, the VL series cabs have tons of mids (and with 5 of them, I am listening to 10 mid-range drivers!), and Epifani are known for their killer tweeters, so I guess these results should not be surprising.

    Well, I am sorry that I can't comment on Bergies directly, but I hope this slightly off topic dissertation is of some assistance.

  20. Larzito


    Aug 1, 2000
    Dallas, Texas
    Lots of good input from everyone...thanks! I've been thinking about this and think maybe it could be a power issue...I'll try to borrow a big power amp and feed the Bergies lots of juice...but that brings up a reality check. I got these cabs so I could haul two lighter cabs instead of a 410XLT. OK, so I have lighter cabs and now need mega pounds of power to juice them? Yes, I know the PLX QSC series is light, but its kinda wimpy sounding for bass. The semiheavy and unreliable Hafler was far more open and naturally voiced for bass. My point? What good is it to have cabs that sound super sweet only after you spend tons of money for esoteric gear to drive them? I want stuff that's efficient, fuss free, reliable and portable...oh, and sounds good. The boutique stuff all seems to be power hungry and fussy. Makes me want to sell all this crap and get a Pbass and a flip top and call it a day.